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Did Hazrat Abu Talib die as a Muslim? Lineage of the Prophet pure!

Posted 09 March 2006 - 06:27 AM (#21) User is offline   Sag--e--Raza 

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As-Salaatu Was-Salaamu Alaika Yaa Rasoolallah (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam)

Refuting the Claim that Imam Abu Hanifa was of the Opinion that the Prophet's Parents were Kafirs


Salafis" keep reiterating the claim that the Prophet's (Allah bless him and give him peace) parents died as kafirs and that they were destined to reside eternally in the Hell-fire. One fails to understand the significance of wasting time and energy to keep bringing such an issue to life.

Countless scholars have written on this topic in support of the parent's survival. The following piece of writing is not intended to outline any such topic. It is only for the purpose of refuting what some "Salafis" allege about Imam Abu Hanifa. They say he was of the opinion that the parents are in Hell. They quote an adulterated version of his theological booklet al-Fiqh al-Akbar, which is an outstanding statement of Sunni doctrine the Imam wrote to clarify the Sunni `Aqida.]

[Source: Dr. `Inayatullah Iblagh al-Afghanistani, Doctorate thesis: al-Imam al-A`zam Abu Hanifa al-Mutakallim (The Greatest Imam: Abu Hanifa, The Theologian),2nd edition, with supervision of Dr. Muhammad Ali Mahjub, Minister of Awqaf and President of the Supreme Council for Religious Affairs, Cairo, 1987.

__________________________________________________________________



Regarding the [discrepancies in the] text (matn), we find in some of the manuscripts (nusakh) [of al-Fiqh al-Akbar] some words that differ from what is in other manuscripts. For example, we find in some of them: "... and the two parents of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) died on the innate nature" (mata `ala al-fiTra). In some others, it is: "did not die on disbelief" (ma mata `ala al-kufr). While in other ones, we find: "died on disbelief" (mata `ala al-kufr).

Allama al-Kawthari noted that the word fitra can be easily altered to kufr in Kufic Arabic calligraphy. Therefore, it is highly probable that the copy with "died on the innate nature" was changed to "died on disbelief". This [the correct copy: i.e. "died on the innate nature"] implies as if the Greatest Imam wanted to argue with it against whoever iterates the Hadith: "My father and your father are both in the Hell-fire" (Abi wa abuka fi al-nar), reported by `Ali (ra). The way of responding to this [allegation] is that putting the woman [I think the author shifted here to talk about the Prophet's mother] in the fire cannot be affirmed except by a definite proof (dalil qaT`i) and this is not a practical (`amali, i.e. fiqhi) matter in order for an indefinite proof (dalil Danni) to suffice for it. Consequently, what might be believed [by some], regarding the parents of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) being in the Hell-fire, is not based on a definitive proof.

Moreover, we find more evidence in what was mentioned my al-Hafiz Muhammad Murtada al-Zabidi - the commentater on the Ihya' and the Qamus - in his booklet (risala) al-Intisar li Walidayy al-Nabi al-Mukhtar (The Support for the Parents of the Chosen Prophet). He said that when the copier (nasikh) saw the repetition in the word 'ma mata', he thought that one of them was extra, so he removed it. Then this incorrect copy was destined to become widespread. [He is referring to the repetition of the 'ma'. The first 'ma' is a word meaning 'did not'. The second 'ma' is an integral part of the word 'mata', meaning 'both died'].

Another evidence to this is the way it [the words] is mentioned (siyaq al-khabar), because Abu Talib [the Prophet's uncle] and his [the Prophet's] parents, have they been all in one state, he [Abu Hanifa] could have combined them in one sentence, as opposed to two sentences, if there was no difference between them in that verdict. This is a good analysis from al-Hafiz al-Zabidi. Also, `Allama al-Kawthari mentioned that he saw the copy that contains 'ma mata' in two manuscripts in Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya. I went back to view them and found them as mentioned by al-Kawthari.

Furthermore, `Allama al-Kawthri mentioned in his editions of the letters (rasa'il) of Abu Hanifa, kept in Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya, number 24205, that "There exists manuscripts of it in Maktabat al-Fatih in the Astana [in the Ottoman Impire/present day Turkey].


Wal-Hamdulillah.

Source:http://www.alsunnah.ca/parents.html
Kya kahoon Aaqaa (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) mein kya hoon
Banda-e-Gaus-ul-waraa hoon
Kwajaa key Dar kaa Gadaa hoo
Aur Sag-e-Ahmad-Raza hoon

Yaa Gaus Al-Madad
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 06:59 AM (#22) User is offline   objective-enquirer 

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i think you are missing the point; sher sahib. regardless of which scholar in the world, no one is dearer to me then janab Abu Talib(alay salam). the point was not what evidence the teacher imam ul haramain Syed zaini dehlan makki and student aalahazrat maulana ahmed raza is presenting but rather both have a difference of opinion, which refutes your sweeping generalisation in post 68 that 'it is ONLY the shia that say He was a momin'...

secondly, to do taweel and twist words and present 'mahzoof' which wasn't there in the first place is typical of shia and qadianis etc but nevertheless, mulla ali Qari has  written sharah of fiqh akbar and failed to endorse your meaning and also had no qualms about it as they have been mentioned by others in this thread etc...(but i challenge you to produce a single example from another book in the classical era with words 'Ala kufrin' meaning BEFORE ISLAM, you will not because it is not MUSTAMAL as such)  by the way this was said for you and i dont follow it because to do taqleed in aqeedah is Haram!!

next you will say that ghunyatul talibeen is not ghaus ul azam's book because it calls imam Abu hanifa  a murjiya in it.

actually, the enemity with imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(A) caused people to fabricate against their ancestors such was the strangle hold of the rulers upon scholars that bokhari would report from a person who sent 70 lanat upon Ali ibn Abu Talib every morning before fajar but would not bring a single report from Ahle Bayat Imams close to his times.

it is quite strange that i'm arguing for the imaan of Abu Talib with you, like you would argue for hazoor Paak's (S) parents(A) with wahabees. only if you had read diwaan of Abu Talib(A) you would know...i know for a fact that Abu Sufyan is dearer to you then Abu Talib, well mobarak to you. The Quran says 'hal jaza ul ihsaan illa al-ihsaan'  ihsaan is return for ihsaan....well  the ihsaan of Abu Talib upon Hazoor Paak(S) is more than anyone but what return has he got for this ihsaan?  have you ever read the list of those died in karbala, well you would notice that AGAIN majority that died were descendants of Abu Talib... 

it is not like me to argue in such ways but you couldnt understand the challenge so here we are.

     
(please note i've got nothing against Imam Abu hanifah or Aalahazrat, it is just an example to highlight difference of opinion,  why Ghaus Ul Azam call imam abu hanifah a murjiya in ghunyat ul talibeen?? SAG raza sahib or is there another nuskha somehere?? point is opinions opinions do not Form our aqeedah and taqleed in aqeedah is haram)
Eyesight is useless if the insight is blind
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 04:47 AM (#23) User is offline   azzy 

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salaam
explain this

in sahih muslim it says
"the least punishment in hell fire is of abu talib where he will be wearing shoes of fire and his brain will be boiling"
THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









IMAM SHAHFIEE
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 04:53 AM (#24) User is offline   azzy 

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explain this

Abdullah b. al-Harith reported: I heard Abbas say: I said: Messenger of Allah, verily abu talib defended you and helped you; would it be beneficial for him? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes; I found him in the lowest part of the Fire and I brought him to the shallow part.



THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









IMAM SHAHFIEE
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 04:54 AM (#25) User is offline   Tahir-Riaz 

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Let me first proclaim that I personally believe that Hazrat Abu Talib (ra) died as a Muslim and there are tons of explanation and references for this. Muslims have done great injustice to this Noble name, apparently for Him being the Father of Hazrat Ali (ra). But, we can not negate or blame our scholars for taking a stand against their Emaan. This is due to the fact that their conviction is manifested by Hadith books. So, let me make clear that both views are held by Sunni scholars, and we should STOP mocking any of them.

Brother OE, May Allah increase your knowledge and bless you with bounties of this world and the next. There is a question in my mind regarding the Ayat quoted by you.

When the guards appointed by Hazrat Abu Talib (ra) were removed, I believe this Ayat was revealed.

Surahe Al-Maidah(5) Ayat 67

English(Yusuf_Ali)
O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

Note the parse: Allah will defend.

Would you mind explaining the distinction between the prior and post stage? What's the distinction here, in light of your statement please?

Ya Hassan

Tahir


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Posted 10 March 2006 - 04:58 AM (#26) User is offline   azzy 

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and if you read any hadith from muslim sharif or the others you will find out that when they mention hadhrat ali bin abu talib it says not "un hummah" which means upon them

it only says upon him meaning the HOO dameer goes back to hadrat Ali not abu talib

ma salaam

THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









IMAM SHAHFIEE
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:01 AM (#27) User is offline   Tahir-Riaz 

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Originally posted by: بج عظى على شاء
salaamexplain thisin sahih muslim it says"the least punishment in hell fire is of abu talib where he will be wearing shoes of fire and his brain will be boiling"

Would you mind explaining to me the point with wearing shoos of fire when your whole body is embraced by flames?

Why will only the mind boil when your whole body will reach the melting point?

Surly, we should check the chain of narration of this Hadith.

Tahir


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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:05 AM (#28) User is offline   azzy 

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brother tahir saab

i read in a book in arabic some time back when i remember the name ill tell you. sorry
"the prophet did masah of abu talibs body when he passed away and the prophet did not touch his head and his feet"

this is a sharah of that hadith but inshahallah i'll find out the books name

ma salaam

THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









IMAM SHAHFIEE
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:12 AM (#29) User is offline   Tahir-Riaz 

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Originally posted by: بج عظى على شاء
explain this
Abdullah b. al-Harith reported: I heard Abbas say: I said: Messenger of Allah, verily abu talib defended you and helped you; would it be beneficial for him? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes; I found him in the lowest part of the Fire and I brought him to the shallow part.

Verily defended you and helped you, would it be beneficial for him?


Defended from people of mischief and help with what?
Propagation of Islam!

Now, I challenge any of you to show me one Hadith about a person having both these qualities and still remaining a Kafir. In any case, this Hadith proves Hazrat Abu Talib (ra) being in hell, but it doesn't prove him being a Kafir. Who told you that no Muslim will enter hell?

Not every Hadith is Sahi in Sahi Muslim.


Ya Ali, tere chahne walo ki Khair

Tahir


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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:28 AM (#30) User is offline   azzy 

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Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that Ali ibn Husayn ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib told him that Aqil and Talib inherited from abu talib and Ali did not inherit from him. Ali said, "Because of that, we have given up our portion of ash Shab." (A house belonging to Banu Hashim).

Narrated 'Amr bin 'Uthman:



Usama bin Zaid said during the Conquest (of Mecca), "O Allah's Apostle! Where will we encamp tomorrow?" The Prophet said, "But has 'Aqil left for us any house to lodge in?" He then added, "No believer will inherit an infidel's property, and no infidel will inherit the property of a believer." Az-Zuhri was asked, "Who inherited abu talib ?" Az-Zuhri replied, "Aqil and Talib inherited him." 


Usama b. Zaid b. Haritha (Allah be pleased with him) said to Alla's Messenger (may peace be upon him): Will you stay in your house at Mecca (which you abandoned at the time of migration)? Thereupon he said: Has 'Aqil left for as any land or house? And 'Aqil and Talib became the Inheritors of abu talibs(property), and neither Ja'far nor 'Ali inherited anything from him, for both (Ja'far and 'Ali) were Muslims whereas 'Aqil and Talib were non-Muslims.

THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









IMAM SHAHFIEE
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:32 AM (#31) User is offline   Tahir-Riaz 

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It's easy to copy paste from different websites. Please do reply to the question posed to you. If you're not in position, then please wait for someone who is.

The aim of this discussing is to enhance our understanding on the topic and not to post most messages.


Don't flood the thread.

Tahir


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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:40 AM (#32) User is offline   azzy 

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first of all im not flooding anything plus where i am its not raining

now if i narrate from the top of my head then ill get to many mistakes i rather type the whole hadith translated by someone far better than you and me

plus these are ahadith proving the imaan of abu talib and if you call typing hadith on this website "flooding the thread" then i think you really need to get your head checked


THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









IMAM SHAHFIEE
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:41 AM (#33) User is offline   azzy 

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why have you changed what you typed before
THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









IMAM SHAHFIEE
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:43 AM (#34) User is offline   objective-enquirer 

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baji ali shah, think about it,  the hadith you mention in sahih moslim says that Hazoor Paak(S) does shafa'at of Abu Talib(A) and the only benefit He gets from it is still remain in hell-fire!!!
what guarantee does anyone have then of shafa'at? what gurantee do you have?? in your kufr of Abu Talib you are bringing down the Khatam ul Anmbiya(S)....

Rasool Allah(S) saves him but still fire in the feet boils his brain....sometimes people lose sight of who they are actually disrespecting??? 

seems like a powerless Prophet to me!!!


and if it is about sahih muslim then it says in chapter of MUTA that hazrat Jabir says: we used to do muta in times of Prophet(S) and then in times of Hazrat Abu Bakr® and in the first half of hazrat omer(S)'s khilafat then He forbade everyone!!!! the shia can say that who is hazrat umer® to make halal into haram, it is only the right of Allah(S) and His Prophet(S)......SEE EVERYTHING IN SAHIH MUSLIM IS NOT NECESSARILY SAHIH, as Riaz sahib has said above....

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:51 AM (#35) User is offline   smartguy 

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Originally posted by: Tahir Riaz

Originally posted by: بج عظى على شاءsalaamexplain thisin sahih muslim it says"the least punishment in hell fire is of abu talib where he will be wearing shoes of fire and his brain will be boiling"Would you mind explaining to me the point with wearing shoos of fire when your whole body is embraced by flames?


Why will only the mind boil when your whole body will reach the melting point?


Surly, we should check the chain of narration of this Hadith.


Tahir





Volume 8, Book 76, Number 569:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

I heard Allah's Apostles when his uncle, Abu Talib had been mentioned in his presence, saying, "May be my intercession will help him (Abu Talib) on the Day of Resurrection so that he may be put in a shallow place in the Fire, with fire reaching his ankles and causing his brain to boil."

Sahih Bukhari
  • To make the Heart Tender (Ar-Riqaq)
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    Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:56 AM (#36) User is offline   Tahir-Riaz 

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    Originally posted by: بج عظى على شاء
    Usama bin Zaid said during the Conquest (of Mecca), "O Allah's Apostle! Where will we encamp tomorrow?" The Prophet said, "But has 'Aqil left for us any house to lodge in?"

    He then added, "No believer will inherit an infidel's property, and no infidel will inherit the property of a believer." Az-Zuhri was asked, "Who inherited abu talib ?" Az-Zuhri replied, "Aqil and Talib inherited him." 

    Was this inheritance done before or after the conquest of Mecca? If it was before, then how does a law which was announced during the conquest apply to the prior period?

    Does this prove that Hazrat Abu Talib (ra) was a Kafir?
    Logically, NO!

    Originally posted by: بج عظى على شاء
    if you call typing hadith on this website "flooding the thread" then i think you really need to get your head checked

    Let me define some rules for you. You will not speak to me or any other person on this site in this tone. This is not your living room, but the domain of Sunni outlook. Please don't make us look ugly.

    Secondly, the Hadiths you are quoting are translated by Whabis, so first learn the full truth before you speak about this being better then that.

    Tahir




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    Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:56 AM (#37) User is offline   objective-enquirer 

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    peace lover, Hazoor paak(S) does intercession but it He still remains in hellfire!!!

    what a power of shafa'at by the Prime cause of creation(S)!!!!

    Eyesight is useless if the insight is blind
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    Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:58 AM (#38) User is offline   azzy 

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    brother im not anyones baji if you look carefully and if you know arabic it says"bij" meaning BIG theres no gheem in the language so its changed to jeem

    brother have you read any books on usool
    THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









    IMAM SHAHFIEE
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    Posted 10 March 2006 - 06:01 AM (#39) User is offline   azzy 

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    " Please don't make us look ugly."

    you accused me of flooding the thread and now i type one thing and you start to cry

    THE WORLD IS BUT A MOMMENT SO MAKE IT A MOMMENT OF OBEDIENCE









    IMAM SHAHFIEE
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    Posted 10 March 2006 - 06:02 AM (#40) User is offline   smartguy 

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    Originally posted by: objective enquirer

    peace lover, Hazoor paak(S) does intercession but it He still remains in hellfire!!!what a power of shafa'at by the Prime cause of creation(S)!!!!



    Brother I only provied reference from yanabi.com database to brother Tahir as he questioned to other guy. I m also looking forward to correct answer. 
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