[Sounny]

salam aleykum

fficeffice" />> Sahih Bukhari>

424. It is related from 'A'isha that Umm Salama mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, a church, which she had seen in Abyssinia, called Mariya. She told him about the pictures she had seen in it and the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Those are a people who, when a righteous slave or righteous man among them dies, build a place of worship over his grave and paint those pictures in it. They are the worst of creatures in the sight of Allah."

425. It is related that 'A'isha and 'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas said, "When the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was dying, he began pulling his khamisa (blanket) over his face but when he felt suffocated by it, he removed it from his face and at that point he said, 'May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and the Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship.' He was warning against what they had done."

426. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "May Allah make war on the Jews who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship."

See this link, copy the address and put it in the address bar.>>

> >

http://bewley.virtua...ukhari5.html#11>>

> >

CCCXLI: "Have you really considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza?" (53:19)

4578. It is related from Ibn 'Abbas about His words, "Have you really considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza?" (53:19) that al-Lat was a man who used to prepare sawiq mash* for the pilgrims.

[* Sawiq is made from wheat or barley flour. Honey or the like was mixed with it.]

CCCXCVIII: "Do not abandon Wadd or Suwa' or Yaghuth or Ya'uq or Nasr." (71:23)

4636. It is related that Ibn 'Abbas said, "The idols which the people of Nuh had were also found among the Arabs afterwards. As for Wadd, it was worshipped by Kalb at Dumat al-Jandal. Hudhayl had Suwa'. Yaghuth belonged to Murad and then to the Banu Ghutayf at al-Jawf near ffice:smarttags" />lace>Sabalace>'. Ya'uq belonged to Hamdan. Nasr belonged to Himyar, a branch of Dhi'l-Kala'. These were the names of righteous men among the pople of Nuh. After their death, Shaytan inspired their people to set up idols in the places where they used to sit and to call them by their names. They did that and they were not worshipped until those people died and knowledge [about them] disappeared. Then they were worshipped."

> >> >

These two hadith were taken from Aisha Bewley’s page, who is a sufi http://bewley.virtua.../bukhari33.html

> >

> >

Book 9, Number 9.24.88:

88 Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam from 'Ata' ibn Yasar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "O Allah! Do not make my grave an idol that is worshipped. The anger on those who took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration was terrible." >>

See http://bewley.virtua...w3.html#shorten

> >

This last hadith is mursal in Muwatta, and it comes in others books as in Musnad Ahmad, and it is sahih. And Mursal hadith are sahih without conditions in hanafi Usul.
>
Insha Allah I will put more hadith about this from Muslim, Tirmidhi and others, if the web master does not censor them.

But in these hadith we can see clear words of not taking graves of Prophet and Wali as place of worship ( masajid)

and also that a grave can be a Idol, because the Prophet saw made dua that is grave does not become an idol

also that many idol came from exxagertaion in saints

What is the bralwi reply to these hadith ?

You claim to love the Prophet saw so you should follow his hadith.

You claim to be sunni, do you reject Bukhari and Malik ?

If you censor the prophet's words, how can you be Sunni ?

May Allah guide us

>

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

Also for the origin of Shirk and the shirk of Kafir, they were not saying there are other creator than Allah, Razaq, rather they were worshiping idols from saints, trees, stones, to get close to Allah and they believed these things are intercessor, and to get close to Allah.

“Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allah only. And those who take Auliyaa' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever”. ( ffice:smarttags" />3 : 39)

“And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!” ( 18: 10)

The Mushrik did believe in Allah and invoke him in time of difficulies

“And when a wave covers them like shades (i.e. like clouds or the mountains of seawater), they invoke Allah, making their invocations for Him only. But when He brings them safe to land, there are among them those that stop in the middle, between (Belief and disbelief). But none denies Our Signs except every perfidious ungrateful”. ( 32:31)

They believed Allah was the only creator, Razaq, Mudabir

“Say "In Whose Hand is the sovereignty of everything (i.e. treasures of each and everything)? And He protects (all), while against Whom there is no protector, (i.e. if Allah saves anyone none can punish or harm him, and if Allah punishes or harms anyone none can save him), if you know."

“They will say: "(All that belongs) to Allah." Say: "How then are you deceived and turn away from the truth?" ( 88-89: 23)

“And if you ask them who created them, they will surely say: "Allah". How then are they turned away (from the worship of Allah, Who created them)?” ( 87 : 43)

So their shirk was that they were taking idols from saints, stones and others and invoke them, when they were in difficulty they only invoked Allah, then made shirk and invoked some intercessors

Who can deny that Abu Jahl was invoking Allah to decide in Badr that the false one might be killed, and he was killed.

So Mushrik belived in Allah has the all mighty, and they belived he has given powers to others.

What is the bralwi answer ?

Do you deny Lat was a saint ?

Do you deny that Suwaa, nasr and othetrs where saints ?

Do you deny that Mushrik were taking idols ase intremediate to get close to Allah, but where believing that Allah is the only Cretor and the all Mighty

May Allah make us undertsand Tawhid

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

Two hadith from Sahih Muslim

Thamamah ibn Shufayy told him: "Once we were with Fadalah bin 'Ubayd in the Roman land of Rudis. One of our companions died and upon burying him we were ordered by Fudalah ibn 'Ubayd to level his grave. Then Fudalah said: 'I heard Allah's Messenger, peace be upon him, ordering people to level the graves of the deceased."

It is reported from Abul al-Hayaj al-Asadi who said 'Ali bin Abu Talib told me: "Should I not instruct you to do as the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, instructed me? Do not leave a statue standing without removing it. Do not leave a grave raised without leveling it."


Do bralwi deny thess two ahadith ?

The Sahabi forbade that for another Sahabi, so it means this order to level graves is for every grave.

This is why the graves of Sahabah in Baqi and Uhud are not build, neither there is a Mazar.

Nobdoy knows where the grave of Uthman or Hamza is.

Can someone deny that Sahabah, Tabiiin did not build constructions on Sahabah's graves

Every time, i ask this to the members of my family that are bralwi, they cannot answer.

Where is the mazar of Hamza and Uthman ?

May Allah guide us all

[Sounny]

see on http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html

hadith from Sahih Muslim

Chapter 47: FORBIDDANCE TO BUILD MOSQUES ON THE GRAVES AND DECORATING THEM WITH PICTURES AND FORBIDDANCE TO USE THE GRAVES AS MOSQUES

---

Book 004, Number 1076:

'A'isha reported: Umm Habiba and Umm Salama made a mention before the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) of a church which they had seen in Abyssinia and which had pictures in it. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When a pious person amongst them (among the religious groups) dies they build a place of worship on his grave, and then decorate it with such pictures. They would be the worst of creatures on the Day of judgment in the sight of Allah.

---

Book 004, Number 1077:

'A'isha reported: They (some Companions of the Holy Prophet) were conversing with one another in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) (during his last) illness. Umm Salama and Umm Habiba made a mention of the church and then (the hadith was) narrated.

---

Book 004, Number 1078:

'A'isha reported: The wives of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be Upon him) made a mention of the church which they had seen in Abyssinia which was called Marya, and the rest of the hadith is the same.

---

Book 004, Number 1079:

'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said during his illness from which he never recovered: Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians that they took the graves of their prophets as mosques. She ('A'isha) reported: Had it not been so, his (Prophet's) grave would have been in an open place, but it could not be due to the fear that it may not be taken as a mosque.

---

Book 004, Number 1080:

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Let Allah destroy the Jews for they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship.

---

Book 004, Number 1081:

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Let there be curse of Allah upon the Jews and the Christians for they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship.

---

Book 004, Number 1082:

'A'isha and Abdullah reported: As the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was about to breathe his last, he drew his sheet upon his face and when he felt uneasy, he uncovered his face and said in that very state: Let there be curse upon the Jews and the Christians that they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship. He in fact warned (his men) against what they (the Jews and the Christians) did.

---

Book 004, Number 1083:

Jundub reported: I heard from the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) five days before his death and he said: I stand acquitted before Allah that I took any one of you as friend, for Allah has taken me as His friend, as he took Ibrahim as His friend. Had I taken any one of my Ummah as a friend, I would have taken Abu Bakr as a friend. Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.

[AliAhmed]

Now lets have a concesus on this issue. But for that we need all aayaat al Kareemah and the ahadith al Shurafa that exist on this issue to do a complete and correct ijtihad, together with the tafseers and the other sacred sciences

are u up to the job my wahabi friend Athri Ghair Muqallad?...

[Sounny]

See SAHIH MUSLIM

http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html

Chapter 199: COMMANDMENT IN REGARD TO THE LEVELLING OF THE GRAVE

---

Book 004, Number 2114:

Thumama b. Shafayy reported: When we were with Fadala b. 'Ubaid in the country of the Romans at a place (known as) Rudis, a friend of ours died. Fadala b. 'Ubaid ordered to prepare a grave for him and then it was levelled; and then he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) commanding (us) to level the grave.

---

Book 004, Number 2115:

Abu'l-Hayyaj al-Asadi told that 'Ali (b. Abu Talib) said to him: Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling It. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (Do not leave) a picture without obliterating it.

Chapter 200: IT IS FORBIDDEN TO PLASTER THE GRAVE OR CONSTRUCTING ANYTHING OVER IT

---

Book 004, Number 2116:

Jabir said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) forbade that the graves should be plastered or they be used as sitting places (for the people), or a building should be built over them.

---

Book 004, Number 2117:

A hadith like this has been transmitted on the authority of Jabir b. 'Abdullah.

---

Book 004, Number 2118:

Jabir said that he was forbidden to build pucca graves.

So these hadith are clear that it is forbiden to build graves, to makes Tajsis of them, solid graves, to build Mazar on them.

And the Way of the Shahabah, Tab'i and Salaf testify to it.

Can one Bralwi prove sahabah and Tabi'i plastered graves, made mazar on them ?

If not then why ?

As for Sistani, you are invited to explain all these hadith, like all people on this forum.

Why are these hadith not acted upon ?

Where Bukhari, Malik and other Wahabi ?

I already asked my bralwi relatives, is there any Ayat or hadith calling us to make solid graves, mazar on them, ask people of graves, make nadhr for the people of grave and sacrifice.

Why is that not in Quran and Hadith ?

Why do not see in the Quran orders to ask people of grave, as bralwi do ?

Bralwi give so much importance to grave, urs, and other, why is that not directly and clearly indicated in the Quran and hadith as Salat, Zakat and others.

Where did Allah tell us take the graves of Prophet and saints as place of worship, ask the people of grave, they will remove your difficulties, they will give you children, make sacrifice for them, and others

All we found in hadith is curse for those who take graves of Prophet and Salihin as place of worship, Prophet saw asking Allah not to turn his grave as an idol worshipped, forbidcance of plastering graves nad order to eleveate them

May Allah make us true lover of His Prophet and give us tawfeeq to follow his ahadith

Allah said If Allah touches you with Harm ,no one can remove it except Him

Allah said Pray for you Lord and sacrifice ( sacrifice is like prayer, worship)

The Prophet said Du'a is worship, Tirmidhi

Ina Salati wa Nusiki wa Mahia wa mamati Lillahi Tabil Almanin

Yaka Na'budu wa Yaka Nasta'in ( You only do we worship and to You only who do ask help)

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

Abu Hurayra narrates from The Prophet (saw) : « Do not take my grave as ‘Idd, and do not turn your houses in graves, and send salutations on me from where you are, because your salutations are send to me.” [ Ahmad, Abu Dawud, declared Sahih by Albani in « Ahkam Jana’iz » ]


How the kalam of Rasullah saw is beautiful, how is message is clear.

The Prophet saw taught ibn Abbas : When you seek help, seek help only from Allah. Tirmidhi

This is the Prophet saw teaching Tawhid to ibn Abbas

May Allah guide us on the Sunnah of His Prophet saw

[Tahir-Riaz]

"I already asked my bralwi relatives, is there any Ayat or hadith calling us to make solid graves, mazar on them, ask people of graves, make nadhr for the people of grave and sacrifice."

Athri, you’re in habit of spreading your propaganda and avoiding any of the questions posed to you. Your whole trick is to hide behind weak and fabricated hadiths and twisted translation of the Holy Quraan. You represent just questions, not answers.


First of all if you’re sick, you should seek advice from a professional doctor. Asking your family is not always sufficient treatment.


"Why is that not in Quran and Hadith ?"


It’s obvious that you have limited knowledge about the Holy Quraan. I recommend that you should, instead of becoming a Munqir (Rejecter), learn the ways to obtain knowledge from the Book.
Just because you think its not there, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Mazhars of Awliya Allah are Signs of Allah and it can be proven from the Holy Quraan.


Can you locate where?


Tahir

[Fatma]

How can it br proved from the Quran? Kindly enchant me with it. I am a brelvi. I do visit mazars , as my family does. But wish i had some ayat from Quran to prove we can ask the Auliya Allah , who are no more to pray for us. Sheeba

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

Mazhars of Awliya Allah are Signs of Allah and it can be proven from the Holy Quraan.

Please can you show any clear Ayat saying this ?

Also can you see which hadith is distorted ?

Many of them are taken from Sufi Bewley's page, so people do not say it is wahabi propaganda, but sunni litterature, agreed upon by every sect except Shi'ah. Even Qadiani apostate belive in sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

And if Awliyah Allah are signs of Allah, where all Mazhar of all Prophets ?

Where are Mazhars of Sahabah ?

Can you even prove Sahabah did buid Mazhar, in the very rich Islamic hadith litterarture.

I invite every bralwi to make tahqiq, ask questions to their Imams.

Just to name some du'a of Prophets

" Allah huma, Ini Massani DUR, wa ANTA Arhamu Rahimin"

" Rabana thalamna An Fussana, wa ilam Tarfir lana wa Trahamna, lakunana minal Khasirin"

" la ilaha ila anta, Subhanaka, Ini Kuntu mina Thalimin"

Also the du'a of Mussa, when he flew from Missr, he said " I am Faqir"

and Zakariyah imploring Allah for a child.

We have in Prophets exemple of total slavery to Allah, their making du'a to Allah only in the Quran in time of difficulties, for needs.

Where are stories in the Quran, about people going to their graves and asking Prophets for children, health, and other, to make nadhr and Qurbani for Sahib Qabr.

May Allah guide us all

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

The Prophet saw, As Sadiq Al Masduq said to Ibn Abbas : " If you seek help, then seek the help of Allah"

Tirmidhi, see Mishkat n 5302

Allah said : " When you sought aid and delivrance of your Lord and He responded to you that He was sending you a thousand angels in sucession to assist you" ( Anfal, 9 )

Here you have Ahsraful anbiyah wal Mursalin, before Badr making du'a to Allah to help Muslims.

Allah said " Iz Taztaghithuna Rabbakum" meaining when you made Istighathah to your Lord, meaning seeking help from Your Lord.

" Say: I do not possess for you harm orr guidance, rather that is for Allah. Say : none can save or protect me from Allah ( If I was to disobey Him), nor could I find any REFUGE except with Him"
(Sourah Jinn : 21:22)

So you have in Messenger of Allah a perfect exemple for the one who seeks to meet Allah.

Can any Bralwi show from the Quran any Prophet asking help to another Prophet, like Yussuf in jail asking his grand Father Ibrahim medad, or Zakaryah asking Mussa to give him children ?

Ya Allah Medad, bi Rahmatika Astaghithu

" If Allah touches you with a harm, no one can remove it except Him " ( Yunus, 107)

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

Allah describing His Prophets : " They used to hasten to acts of devotion and obediance, and invoking Us with love and fear, and were humble before Allah" ( Anbiyah 21 : 90) 

" And the Masajid are for Allah, do not invoke with Allah anyone" ( Jinn 72 : 18)

" Your Lord said : INVOKE me, I will answer you. Indeed those who disdain to My WORSHIP, will enter Hell fire with disgrace" ( Ghafir 40 : 60)

So you see Invoking is du'a, as in the hadith of Tirmidhi, " Du'a is Worship", like Nadhr, sacrifice, Tawaf, and it should be done for Allah only.

May Allah guide us all

[Tahir-Riaz]

"Please can you show any clear Ayat saying this ?"

So, we both agree on that you don’t know?
If I show you, would you accept it?

Tahir

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

I don't know any Ayat mentionning that graves of Prophets or saints are Sha'ir of Allah

I know the Makkah, Madinah, Quds, Arafah, Mina, Muzdalifa and others beinf Sha'ir of Allah and Hloy places.

If you have any Ayat saying graves of Wali are special places of worship, or from Allah signs, then please show me.

How can the Prophet saw curse jews and christians because they took the graves of their Prophets and saints as place of worship, and these graves and mazhar are signs of Allah, and worship is done their, du'a, sacrifice, Nadhr and other kinds of worship.

And I want a clear Ayat, not a far fetched interpretation, that only convinve alradey convinced people

May Allah guide us all

[AliAhmed]

As Salam 'alaykom my dear brothers and sisters...

Is there anyone on earth in this age, that hasn't troubled his own relatives more than wahhabis and wahhabi oriented deobandis?

they come into their homes, label their parents, their relatives "barelwis", forcibly change them, and then brag about it?

Now does the above conform to the Sunnah shareefah of our Habeeb 'alaihissalam?

remember the relatives are Muslims, they are Muslims as the Muslims in the 14 centuries before them....

nothing in Deen has changed, it is alive and fresh,

all that has changed is the dunya and the adherents of the Deen, a disintegration (not disintegration of Deen)

people just became less and lesser religious,

they just forgot who they are more and more, while dunya increased in their hearts more and more....
they became salafi, shi'ah of so many sects,

it is a fact that the Iranians who accepted the shi'a ithna 'ashri and Nizari Ismaili religions, did it for money and to gain dunya, to live happily in dunya and get concessions that could have been denied to them...same for the salafis in sa'udia land

that is the real bid'ah dzalalah, and all other bid'ah dzalalahs come out from it....

[Tahir-Riaz]

"And I want a clear Ayat, not a far fetched interpretation, that only convinve alradey convinced people"

InshaAllah, time will show you who is far fetched and who is not!
I know you will act deaf and dumb towards anything presented.
That’s why we have to move a head 1 step at a time.

Step one:
Our first step is to reach a “common” understanding on how to use the Holy Quraan as a legislative power.

Please explain, according to your “knowledge”, how Quraans internal legislative can be used to obtain information about something being Haram or Halal?

Headari Raang,
Maula Ali Da Malang

YaAli

Tahir

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

Look I am a sunni, I follow Quran, Hadith, Ijma', Qias sahih

If you prove anything from the Quran, I follow it if it sahih.

You must know the Usul Fiqh, the Mantuq and Mafhum, and others, so show your point by a clear dalil, as Quran is clear in his guidance.

The Prophet saw said I left you on a clear path day as night.

So the truth is clear to everybody seeking it without bias.

And we are followers of Prophet, not of an Imam, Jam'at, hizb, we follow dalil, not our feeling or desire.

I hope the dalil will be clear, because what is happening is a serious matter, it is related to Allah's sole right of worship 

And a lot of people are making millions on graves, justifying the people of graves have these and these powers, you can bring food to graves, give money there you will be forgiven, do khatam to dead, he will be forgiven, do ghyrvien, do this on grave do that, and you will be protected yawma al Qyamat

May Allah guide us all

[AliAhmed]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, my wahhabi friend Athri Ghair Muqallid,

are yu saying, yu have a mastery in Usul al Fiqh, Mantiq,Tafseer, Hadith shareef, Qur'an al Kareem, 'ilm al Kalam,Qurayshi Arabic, Ijmaa' and Qiyas, tarikh?

and u want to do ijtihad?.....or do u want to copy some other previous wahhabi scholar, which as far as I know is blind following, isn't it?

[Tahir-Riaz]

In other words, you dont know?
I want clear statments, as this is is indeed a very serious matter.


Tahir

[Sounny]

salam aleykum

Sistani, the definition of Taqlid is following Ghayr Nabi saw without prove.

As for following with prove it is not Taqlid, rather Ittiba'.

For instance someone says, I do this because Abu Hanifa said that, he is doing Taqleed.

If he says, Abu Hanifa said this, basing on this Ayat or hadith, then he is doing Ittiba'. For instance, he says, on this topic the rajih saying is that of Muhammad ibn Hassan because of this reason, and other.

As for Hanafi fiqh, it is not the compilation of Abu Hanifa's Fatwa, but of four Mujtahid, Abu Hanifa, Abu Yussuf, Muhammad ibn Hassan and Zufar.

Just look at kitab Khazraj of Abu Yussuf and you will see how many times he difers from his shaykh.

And in hanafi book, you have on this point the saying Mufti bihi is that of Abu Yussuf, that of Abu Hanifa, that of Zufar, and the hanafi scholar gives dalil of it.

We ahle hadith are doing the same, except we take from all fuqahas, see on things dalil fo every body's saying, see if one faqih has a hadith and other qias, we give tarjih to hadith, if someone has a hadith and muhadith explain the weakness of it, and another Faqih has sahih hadith.

And Allah wants us to follow dalil and proves, Allah blames people taking their monks and rabbis as Lord, making Halal Haram and other. the reason of misguidance of Mushrik is also follwing their elders, and Allah says these names were invented by your fathers, Allah did not reveal it.

The same, the order in the Quran isto follow Allah and His Prophet, and if someone does not know he asks a scholar who explains him Kitab wa Sunnah, or how he derived his judgement from these two sources.

As for Tahir Riaz, we are following truth, if you give us a clear ayat tellling us or encouraging us to ask our needs to graves of Prophet of Wali, then we follow Quran.

We are not shi'ah who have another Quran, which is three times bigger, and hold by their so told secret Imam.

And we are not Batini who do not follow Shari'ah but the secret knoledge of their shaykh.

May Allah guide us all