[Munir_Ahmed]

[blogger]

What does Mufti Saheb propose we do when the sun does not go below 18 degrees?

[Khalid_the_Warrior]

blogger, on 19 July 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

What does Mufti Saheb propose we do when the sun does not go below 18 degrees?

What is the correct time of Sehri? I don't care if its 18 or 15 degree. 18 degree seems to be too early,closing fast at 1:00 in the morning is way too early. Is this the correct time? What about Moulana Firaswi sahib, are they proposing about 2 or something.

[arzooemadinah]

they all have to unite and tell people the correct time when sahoor ends instaed arguing when start and again deen ki khidmat is zarori ya tanzemon ka ik dosry ko oncha necha dikhna zaroori hay .Ala hazrat ya kisi or ki kitabon ki bjaye sedha sedha ub dekhn kub dawn time hay or us kay mutabiq time table bna deen koi bhi inkar nahe kary ga .

[arzooemadinah]

Munir_Ahmed, on 19 July 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

baqi 11 months un ka emaan kion murjhya hota hay .

[Desert-Sheikh]

Coreect Sahuur, perfect Iftar, 18 degree..... is it the first Ramzan in British-Muslim's life??

Duniya chand pe chali gai aur yaar log abhi Sahuur ka time tey kar rahey hein (they are walking on the moon, but we are yet fighting over prayer time).


Mein Janta Hun Jamaat Ka Hashar Kya Ho Ga
Masael-e-Nazari Mein Ulajh Gya Hai Khateeb (Mullah-o-Pir)

{The end of Muslim folk I know full well, On theoretic points their preachers dwell - Hazrat Allama Muhammad Iqbal}

[arzooemadinah]

elders will not listen to any of them they will folow the near musjids time table where ever they go but the youngsters they confusing them, ik kehta hay ala hazrat nay yeh kaha dosra kahta hay ala hazrat nay yeh nahe kaha , alahzart say bhi itfaq karen lakin aj ki science and mufties etc say bhi to itfaq karen , ala hazrat nay yeh to nahe kaha tha mary baad kisi ki baat na sun na.

pehly eid kay chand ka jhugra tha aub saheri aftari ka kis turf yeh ja rha hay qafilah.

[Mudassar-Rana]

People have got their timetables - its too late to do anything now - so why play with people's emotions on the even of Ramadan?

Leave it - lets have the usual debate over who saw the moon and did we receive the fax with the relevant testimony/beard/certificate of sunniyat!

Or we can show our creator how much we care for the ummah of Rasool Allah a.s that we talk about the suffering of the burmese,syrian, Palestinian and Kashmiri muslims? Erm have I asked for too much?

[blogger]

blogger, on 19 July 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

What does Mufti Saheb propose we do when the sun does not go below 18 degrees?

There are 3 well known criterias that have been suggested by past learned scholars (accepted by all) with regards to Subh-Sadiq (true dawn) during twilight days (days when the sun does not go below 18 degrees). Ala Hazrat in his works says that there is no Isha time during these days and advised that Isha Qaza namaz should be prayed in the morning before Fajr time.

1. Aqrabul-Bilad
The times from the nearest areas where it is possible to calculate the Subh-Sadiq times should be used, or determine that in these areas which part of the night constitutes Subh-Sadiq, i.e. fifth, seventh etc. and the same calculation should be adopted.

2. Aqrabul-Ayyam
Calculate the time for Subh-Sadiq in the last days when it is possible to determine Subh-Sadiq, and use this time for the days in which it is not entirely possible to determine Subh-Sadiq. For example the time for Subh-Sadiq is at 01:21 (day before twilight period begins), therefore this time should be used for the whole of the twilight period.

3. Nifs-ul-Layl
Record the time for sunset and sunrise and divide this time into two, the first half would be considered night and the other half as the morning. For example sunset is at 21:43 and sunrise is at 04:31 therefore Subh-Sadiq will be considered at 01:07.

From my understanding Mufti Saheb proposes that we use the Nifsul-Layl criteria disregarding the others as the majority of us follow the Hanafi creed and so there are no references from Hanafi sources that support the other two options.


The questions that arise are as follows:

a. At what time does Mufti Saheb suggest we pray Isha?
b. What would the beginning time of Isha be during the twilight days?
c. Can we adopt a different criteria for Isha and a different criteria for Fajr for the same period?

I am actually glad that the debate is taking place maybe too late for this Ramzan but for years a unified timetable in the UK has been in desperate need. If an ill-thought out and misrepresentative TV program has brought this issue to the masses then Inshallah some good will come of this.

There are some people who are claiming the issue is as clear as night and day (18 degrees is the be all and end all) but quite frankly the reality is somewhat different. There are valid arguments and questions to counter this. Some people are directly/indirectly claiming that those who do not follow their criteria are invalidating their worship.

[Khalid_the_Warrior]

Thanks bro blogger for the information. This is what I have seen Irfan Shah sahib discuss on Ummah channel as well but without giving any detail on what these time actually might be.

According to this it seems most time the Sehri ends at 1:00 or so but where does this 2:00 or 3:00 timetable come from? Do you have any idea?

[blogger]

Khalid_the_Warrior, on 19 July 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Thanks bro blogger for the information. This is what I have seen Irfan Shah sahib discuss on Ummah channel as well but without giving any detail on what these time actually might be.

According to this it seems most time the Sehri ends at 1:00 or so but where does this 2:00 or 3:00 timetable come from? Do you have any idea?

There is another criteria which I forgot to mention:

4. Saba-ul-Layl
The time between sunset and sunrise is divided into seven equal parts. The commencement of the seventh part should be considered as Subah Sadiq. The timetables stating sehri times of around 3am are most probably following this criteria.

Similar to the moonsighting where the vast overwhelming majority of sunni mosques have now united I have high hopes and pray that our timetables become united as well.

The one thing I guard against is that the scholars that are working to reach a conclusion should not really divulge in public circles because to reach a resolution someone will have to compromise, it becomes harder to compromise once such a strong case is made in front of the public. I think Mufti Saheb would find it hard to compromise on his stance as he has been so vocal in favour of his criteria.

[Qadri-Jilani]

There is no kind of consensus forming on timetables at all. Ranging from 1:20 to 3:30, from 18 degrees to 10 degrees (or no criteria adopted at all). No chance of any kind of agreement across ending suhur. On a scholarly level, nothing has been presented to doubt that -18 degrees is the time for subh sadiq, and in the days that -18 degrees is available I have not seen one piece of single strong evidence to suggest subh sadiq as at another time. Truth and scholarship is what will prevail.

Just skimming through Mufti Shams-ul-Huda Sahib's speech, it's a strong indicment of Sabri Sahib. Much of the speech and questions are about Sabri's programme and to give you one excerpt from many he said whoever says Ala Hazrat said subh kazib occurs at -18 degrees is a kazib (liar) himself, and Allah Ta'a says in the Holy Qur'an "the curse of Allah is upon the liars" - as well as the fact that Sabri Sahib is a complete jahil on the issue.