[Mudassar-Rana]

To be fair br QJ - the only reason I wish for us as a muslim community to be more together is simply because there may not exist a muslim community in 25 years time. As the seeds are being sown for so many splits that it wouldnt take much for a bosnia type programme. It may sound far fetched but thats what the Bosnian's thought as well!

I know where br blogger is coming from with regards to the internal issues but maybe all the more reason that scholars behave like scholars?

[DefenderoftheDeen]

I really think you should have a look at this fatawa posted on the website: thesunniway.com in relation to Khurshid Alam Sabiri's appalling behaviour on Debate night regarding the sehri issue. It will clear everything. Unfortunately it is too large for me to upload however you can view it following this link:

http://www.thesunniw...-representation

[qadrimuslim]

Kursheed Alam Sabri can get away with anything on ummah channel.. he's become the worlds fastest Mufti who graduated from google university with a 1st class degree. This Naveed Ashrafi is a complete joke and I doubt his brain processes anything before his mouth opens. He actually called the Ulama as Fitna makers and made some other very stupid comments live on air. How anyone can consider this guy an alim is beyond me.

I too watched as they both disrespected Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (RA) and twisted the meaning Sayyidi Ala Hazrat gave to achieve their 15 degree argument.

They both openly ridiculed Allama Farashwi for his writing on 18 degrees. Whatever you may think of Allama Farashwi, his knowledge of Islamic astronomy is light years ahead of Sabri.

Mufti Ayyub Ashrafi is among the top scholars in Lancashire and is doing alot of work for Ahlus Sunnah - Sabri should be studying under him, not mocking him!

Finally, I understand that some Ulama opt for the 15 degree position and thats fine.. but using blatant intellectual dishonesty to try and win an argument is something we see more and more of. I just hope the public wisen up to it. Ameen

[blogger]

Public Apology by Allama Naveed Ashrafi

[Qadri-Jilani]

Thank you blogger. Hafiz Naveed Ashrafi admits he was wrong and says Sabri must repent and has been dishonest and deceptive. He apologises himself for speaking so rabidly without knowing what Ala Hazrat actually said, and simply depending on Sabri. As you can see he has no idea about that topic at all saying "18 degrees is one suggestion of nisf-ul-layl" and other such things which make no sense at all. This is one of the great tragedies of TV: they have unqualified people talking about topics they have no clue about yet the public assumes because they are on TV, what they are saying must be reliable and authentic. This is one example as Naveed is just a hafiz who I don't think has even been to a madrasa to study Islam.

He does not apologise for his rude behaviour towards Ulama that called in the programme though. This is not taking into account all the scholars that were rebuffed by operators who would not put their calls through there and then but made a special exception in this programme to call people back (which they did not) and put them on air. Who knows what would have been said to them if they allowed them to go through live on air.

[Mudassar-Rana]

Qadri-Jilani, on 14 July 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Thank you blogger. Hafiz Naveed Ashrafi admits he was wrong and says Sabri must repent and has been dishonest and deceptive. He apologises himself for speaking so rabidly without knowing what Ala Hazrat actually said, and simply depending on Sabri. As you can see he has no idea about that topic at all saying "18 degrees is one suggestion of nisf-ul-layl" and other such things which make no sense at all. This is one of the great tragedies of TV: they have unqualified people talking about topics they have no clue about yet the public assumes because they are on TV, what they are saying must be reliable and authentic. This is one example as Naveed is just a hafiz who I don't think has even been to a madrasa to study Islam.

He does not apologise for his rude behaviour towards Ulama that called in the programme though. This is not taking into account all the scholars that were rebuffed by operators who would not put their calls through there and then but made a special exception in this programme to call people back (which they did not) and put them on air. Who knows what would have been said to them if they allowed them to go through live on air.

He is referred to as Sheikh br. Therefore as a scholar the basic etiquette is to actually research the topic - and if he was to take the lead why take it from sabri saab? Its deceitful to then bascially attack Sabri saab rather than admit his own errors. Watch any of his shows and its basically boils down to attacks on either deo's or shia or basically talking about the "correct aqeeda" - when he actually doesnt have enough knowledge to judge the correctness of something so important as aqeedah.

Rather than apology it is more of an attempt to regain credibility after irfan shah saab pulled the rug from under the feet of the 15 degree argument.

As far as Sabri saab is concerned whether his mistakes were genuine or just deceitful Allah knows best but one things for certain is he is losing friends fast. As is usual with this industry of takfir and hate they have connived to shoot themselves. As Allah Ta'ala says HE is the best of "planners".

[Qadri-Jilani]

Yes, he just threw all the blame on Sabri when he surely had some responsibility to uphold a basic level of etiquette as a "shaykh" and a presenter.

I agree QM, what would sabri do without google? To be honest, I find it rather amateur that the panel is sifting through books, and even worse, using their laptops in preparation for the topic of the programme and questions live on air. It not only looks unprofessional and disrespectful to the audience watching them on TV but shows that these guys are not prepared for the topic at hand. Knowledge they should already have in their heads / prepared before the programme.

As for this Khurshid Sabri, he has really got himself in a twist as more Ulama are speaking and writing against him for the way he conducted himself in that programme and the delusory way he tried to establish his points. Many people are expecting a public apology (on TV, as naveed needs to do) and even repent from what he did.

Now that his deception has been exposed here, people should also speak out against his deception on various other programmes, especially those regarding the Ahl al-Bayt such as his deception and misquoting in discussions on afzaliyyat, 'alayhi salam and other assertions in regards to Sayyiduna Ali, Sayyiduna Hasan & Husain. Even if we do not see the type of apology we expect with the fajr issue, I think the net is closing in on him in general so even if he keeps his seat on TV (which I'm sure he will given that these guys have already sold themselves, with no return policy to the dunya and its men) he probably will tread more carefully in the future and think before he lies about the issue of afzaliyyat or alayhi'salam for example. Probably the most we can expect from a person of his standing, and even that might be too much!

[Qadri-Jilani]

Mufti Shams-ul-Huda Sahib has released a fatwa on the issue in support of 18 degrees. Partin the fatwa refute some of things Irfan Shah Sahib said in his programme. It has been signed by prominent Muftis in India.

Mawlana Sialwi on Takbeer TV today also made some comments against Irfan Shah Sahib’s programme (did not hear them directly).

Point is that the discussion will go on for a while yet and an agreement will not come anytime soon. What will probably happen is that most of the knowledgeable Ulama will be devising timetables based on 18 degrees for Fajr and there will be others such as Bradford (Pir Maroof Sahib, Irfan Shah, Ansar-ul-Qadri but not Sahibzada Habib-ur-Rahman Sahib who already bases Fajr on 18 degrees), Birmingham (Jama’at, confederation) and a few others who come what may will be using 12 degrees, 15 or random numbers plucked out of thin air. That’s just stating how things will probably turn out.

[Mudassar-Rana]

Qadri-Jilani, on 15 July 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Mufti Shams-ul-Huda Sahib has released a fatwa on the issue in support of 18 degrees. Partin the fatwa refute some of things Irfan Shah Sahib said in his programme. It has been signed by prominent Muftis in India.

Mawlana Sialwi on Takbeer TV today also made some comments against Irfan Shah Sahib’s programme (did not hear them directly).

Point is that the discussion will go on for a while yet and an agreement will not come anytime soon. What will probably happen is that most of the knowledgeable Ulama will be devising timetables based on 18 degrees for Fajr and there will be others such as Bradford (Pir Maroof Sahib, Irfan Shah, Ansar-ul-Qadri but not Sahibzada Habib-ur-Rahman Sahib who already bases Fajr on 18 degrees), Birmingham (Jama’at, confederation) and a few others who come what may will be using 12 degrees, 15 or random numbers plucked out of thin air. That’s just stating how things will probably turn out.

The ordinary person has probably received their timetables - and frankly are probably sick to the back teeth of this debate! First we couldnt get the moonsighting right so no one knew when shab e qadr was and now no one will know when fajr and Isha are! The esteem the ulema are held within ordinary people will fall even further - I just hope that because of these antics people dont move away from deen.

Thats why it shouldnt have been classed as a cheap tabloid event by Ummah Channel and the discussion held privately between those who are experts in both deen and also astronomy to pass onto the rest of the ulema. Or since we alledgedly all hold onto every word imam ahmed raza said we could have just settled on the 18 degrees and called it quits. If Islam Channel is the Guardian of Islamic Channels then Ummah Channel is the Daily Mail! Alas it wont be the first of the imam's findings that are ignored.

[Qadri-Jilani]

Of course MR, a bashing session is not the way to tackle any issue including this one. Especially when you are blatantly wrong. There was actually an agreement among some Ulama not to discuss the matter publicly before a scheduled meeting but in very foxy fashion Sabri came on air and started naming people such as Mufti Shams-ul-Huda and Mawlana Farashwi as not willing to discuss with him. So it's clear that people who conduct themselves in the conniving way Sabri does are not the right people to discuss this topic anyway. I know meetings have already taken place on this issue in the last two years but I would say more are needed with a plan to provide timetables (or at least the precise method) to individual masajid. If there are still people who do not agree, then there could be a public panel discussion (in TV if that's desired) where both can present their opinions and the people can decide.

I agree that this whole affair could turn people away, especially when you have a two hour difference between timetables. To be honest there is absolutely no basis for closing the fast at 3:30am, these people should be excluded straight away. Those who believe it should be based on 15 degrees should try to be persuaded and if they do not come round then they can be left to fetch for themselves upon public questioning.

I'm quite pessimistic that these groups in Birmingham and Bradford will come out of their trenches on this but on the other hand we have some room for optimism in the fact that after many years of struggling with them, the Birmingham Jama'at has stopped blind-following Saudi Arabia for the new Islamic months and following the rest of the Sunnis in starting the new months on the correct day. It might take some years but perhaps we could see the same thing happening here?

[Mudassar-Rana]

Br QJ let us forcus on the positive - what charlatans do should be of little concern. The hate mongering of ummayad channel has gone on for long enough and Allah has exposed their love for Yazid for all to see.

In the absence of a caliph and therefore physical leadership of muslims the leadership available is only intellectual leadership. Thus it will take a visionary to take quiet steps to ensure this sort of situation doesnt arise again.

What is needed is that those who excel in astronomy and islamic sciences - of whatever persuasion to work under the guidance of a big name. All the different options available no matter how ridiculous should be discused dispassionately and then the report presented to the heads of the various groups and the public a couple of months before ramadan 2013.

Intellectual leadership of the ummah is the only way - it will push people to work outside the paradigm of sectarianism/takfirism/yazidism/maslakism - and simply work for what the deen has stipulated - so that no decision is discoloured by the above factors. This is why you find Binori Town in Karachi use Imam Ahmed Raza's research. Whatever you think of him or rather whatever you think of those who committ crimes in his name against the ummah - the man himself was a genius and his work shouldnt go unnoticed and it should benefit the ummah for whom he wrote his work.

[Faisal]

Qadri-Jilani, on 15 July 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I'm quite pessimistic that these groups in Birmingham and Bradford will come out of their trenches on this but on the other hand we have some room for optimism in the fact that after many years of struggling with them, the Birmingham Jama'at has stopped blind-following Saudi Arabia for the new Islamic months and following the rest of the Sunnis in starting the new months on the correct day. It might take some years but perhaps we could see the same thing happening here?

Just wanted to make clear that this is utter rubbish. The Muslims of Birmingham have not followed Saudi on moonsighting issues but have looked for reports on sightings from UK, Morocco and South Africa. I think QJ has gone blind with hatred against Kurshid Alam Sabri Sahib and turned the venom on the people of Birmingham. His every other post is trying to degrade the Muslims of Birmingham.

May Allah guide us all to the Sirat al-Mustaqeem. Ameen

[Qadri-Jilani]

Faisal, it has only been about four years since they stopped following Saudi. All decisions for Ramadan and Eid were made according to the announcements made by Regents Park Mosque (London). They would attend the meetings too. (It’s all common knowledge and if you are too young not to have witnessed it then newspaper archives are available). This has only changed very recently alhamdulillah and it's only since the BMF came into operation which is about 4 years. There has also been the support of some Ulama within Birmingham (so it's not all against Birmingham but credit is due to these people in Birmingham). In fact last Ramadan, Birmingham started Ramadan with the rest of the Sunnis in the country but then wished to do Eid a day early (29 days) with the Saudis, whereas the all other Sunnis were completing 30 days as the moon was not visible anywhere. By working with the Markazi Jama'at Ahl-e-Sunnat, Zafarullah Shah Sahib, Raja Zahid Nawaz and Bostan Qadri Sahib managed to overcome those pushing to follow Saudi such as Mawlana Rabbani Afghani, Hafeez-ur-Rehman etc. So there are still strong elements wishing to follow Saudi but alhamdulillah most people see sense and I think it will be very tough for people to follow Saudi in these days.

Sincerity first of all and education is what solves these issues. Today it's only the Jama'at-e-Ahl-e-Hadis who blind-follow Saudi (and a minority of deobandis) with rest of the country starting Ramadan and celebrating Eid according to moonsighting. About six years ago it may have felt like those following moonsighting were in the minority and those following Saudi in the majority (depending on the city/town). Look how much has changed?

My point is that we can be optimistic that such a change will occur in prayer times too. It might be slow, protracted and involve lots of meetings but with some patience we might get there.

I apologise if you felt offended but hope this clarifies what I was saying.

[Faisal]

Qadri-Jilani, on 16 July 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Faisal, it has only been about two years since they stopped following Saudi. All decisions for Ramadan adn Eid were made according to the announcements made by Regents Park Mosque. They would attend the meetings too. (It’s all common knowledge and if you are too young not to have witnessed it then newspaper archives are available). This has only changed very recently alhamdulillah and it's only since the BMF came into operation which is about 4 years. There has also been the support of some Ulama within Birmingham (so it's not all against Birmingham but credit is due to these people in Birmingham). In fact last Ramadan, Birmingham started Ramadan with the rest of the Sunnis in the country but then wished to do Eid a day early (29 days) with the Saudis, whereas the all other Sunnis were completing 30 days as the moon was not visible anywhere. By working with the Markazi Jama'at Ahl-e-Sunnat, Zafarullah Shah Sahib, Raja Zahid Nawaz and Bostan Qadri Sahib managed to overcome those pushing to follow Saudi such as Mawlana Rabbani Afghani, Hafeez-ur-Rehman etc. So there are still strong elements wishing to follow Saudi but alhamdulillah most people see sense and I think it will be very tough for people to follow Saudi in these days.

Sincerity first of all and education is what solves these issues. Today it's only the Jama'at-e-Ahl-e-Hadis who blind-follow Saudi (and a minority of deobandis) with rest of the country starting Ramadan and celebrating Eid according to moonsighting. About six years ago it may have felt like those following moonsighting were in the minority and those following Saudi in the majority (depending on the city/town). Look how much has changed?

My point is that we can be optimistic that such a change will occur in prayer times too. It might be slow, protracted and involve lots of meetings but with some patience we might get there.

I apologise if you felt offended but hope this clarifies what I was saying.

Once again this is not true. I don't know where you get your information from but I think its time you change your sources. Last Ramadan we completed 30 days of fasting Alhamdulillah. I remember very clearly last year the Saudis announcing Eid on a Tuesday and doing 29 days but the Sunnis of Birmingham did Eid on the Wednesday completing 30 days.

[periperi]

QJ ....If there are still people who do not agree, then there could be a public panel discussion (in TV if that's desired) where both can present their opinions and the people can decide.

This is a crazy suggestion.... this is where we are now in the abyss of darkness ... we now have ego's and pride to overcome... The Ulema have let us DOWN...



MR .....The hate mongering of ummayad channel has gone on for long enough and Allah has exposed their love for Yazid for all to see. Really ?? That is Bohtaan on a gigantic scale Brv... I dont revere Ummah TV 100% either, and true they messed up on the 15 and 18 degree show... but to accuse .....their love for Yazid.... Allaho Akbar explain !!

[Desert-Sheikh]

Just a polite reminder to everyone!

Scholar(s), group(s) and channel(s) are being mentioned by name in this thread, so i would like to remind you all that we (YaNabi Team) do not read each and every post, we rely on you for help on reporting any abuse. If you see any posts that you think are problems like offensive or abusive - we need you to tell us about it. Just email/PM us and the issue will be deal with.

PS: Please refer people/groups/channels with their original names regardless of any issue.

Ma'salam

[periperi]

i would like to remind you all that we (YaNabi Team) do not read each and every post,



Kurshid Alam's name has been the title of this popular thread all week...

Are you saying none of the Admins saw this ?? To belittle the zaat is a norm on here the Zaat is appraised not the amal. We Sunnis survive and know our only sanctuary is the Rehmatall lill Alaminiy of Aqa sallalho alyhi wassallam... The Mercy of our Beloved Prophet... but it seems few emulate this. one false move and the knives are out.

[Desert-Sheikh]

periperi, on 16 July 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

i would like to remind you all that we (YaNabi Team) do not read each and every post,



Kurshid Alam's name has been the title of this popular thread all week...

Are you saying none of the Admins saw this ?? To belittle the zaat is a norm on here the Zaat is appraised not the amal. We Sunnis survive and know our only sanctuary is the Rehmatall lill Alaminiy of Aqa sallalho alyhi wassallam... The Mercy of our Beloved Prophet... but it seems few emulate this. one false move and the knives are out.

Actually, no one objected the title (i also felt that it was appropriate but i was wrong, too) or uploaded the actual video in his defence that he didn't fabricated Ala Hazrat's Fatwa (the actual topic of this thread is not the validity of 15 or 18 degree), but as per your suggestion, i've edited the topic.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I whole heartedly agree with you, topics should be initiated to educated people, not to ridicule (people).

PS: Ridicule is not an Argument.

[Qadri-Jilani]

Faisal I suggest you read posts carefully before commenting and misquoting me. At least exercise a basic level of reading competence before making claims like that. The post says that there were some members in the Jama’at who were pushing for 29 days with Saudi but were overcome by the likes of Zafarullah Shah Sahib and Raja Zahid Nawaz and completed 30 days doing Eid with the rest of the Sunnis, alhamdulillah!!

What I have said is not stronger than what other Ulama have said such as Mufti Ayub Ashrafi, Mawlana Nizamuddin, Mufti Shams-ul-Huda. The Fatwa by Mufti Zahid Husain states that he must repent publically for his deception and the people must not take guidance from him.

The point is he deliberately mislead people, not only on Fatawa Rizwiyya but on his other references too. I have also shown it’s not the first time he has done this but has done this in a series of programmes, most recently before this in the ‘alayhi’salam programme. The issue in the case of this thread is that it is the zaat of sabri sahib that is the actual problem, the actual mas'ala is another issue. When the personality is the problem, the personality needs to be tackled.

[Faisal]

Qadri-Jilani, on 16 July 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Faisal I suggest you read posts carefully before commenting and misquoting me. At least exercise a basic level of reading competence before making claims like that. The post says that there were some members in the Jama’at who were pushing for 29 days with Saudi but were overcome by the likes of Zafarullah Shah Sahib and Raja Zahid Nawaz and completed 30 days doing Eid with the rest of the Sunnis, alhamdulillah!!

What I have said is not stronger than what other Ulama have said such as Mufti Ayub Ashrafi, Mawlana Nizamuddin, Mufti Shams-ul-Huda. The Fatwa by Mufti Zahid Husain states the he must repent publically for his deception and the people must not take guidance from him.

The point is he deliberately mislead people, not only on Fatawa Rizwiyya but on his other references too. I have also shown it’s not the first time he has done this but has done this in a series of programmes, most recently before this in the ‘alayhi’salam programme. The issue in the case of this thread is that it is the zaat of sabri sahib that is the actual problem, the actual mas'ala is another issue. When the personality is the problem, the personality needs to be tackled.

I assure you my reading skills are fine Alhamdulillah.

Ghulam Rabbani Afghani Sahib reside in Walthamstow not Birmingham. I was merely pointing out how you've got it in for the Muslims of Birmingham. You never leave an opportunity to talk in a derogatory manner about them.

I'm not going to get involved in the "molvi bashing" going on. The public should leave such matters for the Ulema to deal with.

May Allah Subhanu Wa Tala guide us all to as-Sirat al-Mustaqeem, Ameen.