[Husayni]

[Mudassar-Rana]

Why one would not say Alaihi Salaam for ahlul bayt needs explaining first.

The irony should not be lost that the ummah of habib allah a.s is prepared to say Radiallah Anhu for Yazeed or Hinda but have problems with alaihi salaam for the progeny of the beloved of allah s.a.w? Is this ishq e risaalat or ishq e self? Do we repay the debt we owe to rasool allah s.a.w just by durood or do we own him a little bit more?!

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

The thing is that whether we say Alaihi Salam or radiAllah anhu; the conclusion remains the same, the reward is from God and we can not control the outcome of what peace he brings them. By going for a better salutation we only increase our purity, nothing else.

This post has been edited by Fatema-the-resplendent: 09 July 2012 - 05:54 PM

[Know-the-Ledge]

Radhi Allah 'anhu - May God be pleased with him

'alahis salaam - upon him be peace

Six or two three's....what am I missing?

[Mudassar-Rana]

Know-the-Ledge, on 09 July 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Radhi Allah 'anhu - May God be pleased with him

'alahis salaam - upon him be peace

Six or two three's....what am I missing?

missing nowt bro - people get upset over the fact that a special status is reserved for those whom allah already gave a special status! Neo-Nasibism on oesterogen

[A-New-Hope]

Mudassar-Rana, on 09 July 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

......the ummah of habib allah a.s is prepared to say Radiallah Anhu for Yazeed or Hinda.....

Brother I wouldn't say the ummah but a tiny tiny minority of Nasbis or misguided ignorants will say that about Yazeed.

As for Hinda (RA) that has been discussed on this forum and elsewhere. She accepted Islam and I don't know what she did afterwards to deny her the Sahabiyat or (RA) or appear to be categorizing her (RA) with Yazeed.

Anyway I don't want to go off topic. Just wanted to comment on the Yazeed bit.

[Know-the-Ledge]

Mudassar-Rana, on 09 July 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

missing nowt bro - people get upset over the fact that a special status is reserved for those whom allah already gave a special status! Neo-Nasibism on oesterogen

I saw this on fb the other day, the two factions started rattling off poetry in praise of Abu Bakr and Ali in a sort of sporting contest of a Tennis back and forth with lots of pantomime "ooooh's and aaaaah's". I just thought Wimbledumb lol -x and it made me realise why I prefer football so much more.

[Know-the-Ledge]

Treehouse, on 09 July 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Brother I wouldn't say the ummah but a tiny tiny minority of Nasbis or misguided ignorants will say that about Yazeed.

As for Hinda (RA) that has been discussed on this forum and elsewhere. She accepted Islam and I don't know what she did afterwards to deny her the Sahabiyat or (RA) or appear to be categorizing her (RA) with Yazeed.

Anyway I don't want to go off topic. Just wanted to comment on the Yazeed bit.

Treehouse, he said that people don't have a problem with putting ® after her name but do with putting (as) after the name of Ali et al

It's not trivialising Hinda ® but just asking the question.

[A-New-Hope]

Know-the-Ledge, on 09 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Treehouse, he said that people don't have a problem with putting ® after her name but do with putting (as) after the name of Ali et al

It's not trivialising Hinda ® but just asking the question.

Yes. The Hinda (RA) was a seperate issue and I was thinking of leaving that out. I know the point the brother was making but something didn't feel right.

The Ummah is prepared to say RA for Hinda? This says there's a question mark about her.


Anyway this is going off topic and I don't want to go deeper into controversy.

[Mudassar-Rana]

Know-the-Ledge, on 09 July 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

I saw this on fb the other day, the two factions started rattling off poetry in praise of Abu Bakr and Ali in a sort of sporting contest of a Tennis back and forth with lots of pantomime "ooooh's and aaaaah's". I just thought Wimbledumb lol -x and it made me realise why I prefer football so much more.

Aye though a seperate issue - i fear its a modern trend. I posted a clip a few months ago where shia are shouting Ya Ali and the Salafi's shout back Yazid Fil jannah! In between british police try to keep the peace.

Abu Bakr r.a and Ali a.s are both highly esteemed personalities not just from an islamic perspective but humanity perspective their work has lived long after them. Those that argue in favour of one over the other arent really worthy to pass comment on such lofty people.

As far as Yazeed and Hinda issue is concerned the reason I mentioned them was not to be controversial but just to illustrate that there have been many who have given benefit of doubt to Yazeed and hinda. And in the case of Hinda rightly so as we cant judge her after she accepted islam. However why is it wrong to differentiate between Ali,Bibi Zahra, hassan an hussein and give them the higher respect that their status deserves? Allah's habib a.s said they will be with him in jannah. Allah's habib s.a.w said ali a.s was his brother. Which other personality honoured the purity of the blood of the messenger than hussain a.s? Which other person gave his rightful place as leader of this ummah to save bloodshed other than Hassan a.s?

Thats why I feel there is a nasibi trend spread amongst the ummah which wasnt there in the past. As a test ask your parents what were the names of your great grand parents. It is not uncommon to find names of the ahlul bayt.Infact even imam ahmed raza is classed as shia by many salafi because of the names of the members of his household! Whereas what i have observed is that sunni's shy away from naming their son's hussein in case they are thought of shia! Only the other day a shia lady my wife knows said to her that because I have named my daughter Zahraa Batool we have taken "one of their names"!

All sahaba are worthy of respect but to give ahlul bayt the respect they deserve due to their blood relations with allah's habib s.a.w and their huge and unmatched sacrifices is not much to ask. This ummah will never be able to repay fully the honour that allah bestowed by allowing us the nisbah of rasool allah s.a.w but perhaps we can repay a little by giving the esteem that his household deserves unreservedly and not always making it an issue or challenge to other sahaba.

Abu Bakr r.a as reported by his daughter Bibi Aisha r.a said to look at Ali is Ibadah - name another man in history who has this honour?

[Desert-Sheikh]

Treehouse, on 09 July 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Brother I wouldn't say the ummah but a tiny tiny minority of Nasbis or misguided ignorants will say that about Yazeed.

And here's a tiny tiny minority of Subcontinental (Bareilvi) Sunnis (blatantly lying) doing their best to shove the doggy agenda down Ahle Sunnat's throat.

Self-claimed inheritors of Ala Hazrat, who haven't even read Hadaiq e Bakhshish Sharif.

Grand Imam Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Sahib's Kalam Sharif.

[A-New-Hope]

Desert-Sheikh, on 09 July 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

And here's a tiny tiny minority of Subcontinental (Bareilvi) Sunnis (blatantly lying) doing their best to shove the doggy agenda down Ahle Sunnat's throat.

DS don't get me wrong I wasn't commenting on 'Alaihi Salam'. I'm with Sheikh Yaqoubi on this. I've followed this issue at a glance on the forums and it seemed an Ikhtilafi issue. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The other day when I saw just the title of the Sheikh Yaqoubi video it was very pleasing, even before i had watched it.

My point was as a result of watching the video which I posted the other day. I don't want to keep linking to it. It was fresh in my mind. This post here, about a minute or so into it.

The Ahle Bait(AS) and Sahaba e Kiram(RA) 'Bahot Barreh Hain! Bahot Barreh Hain!' Who am I or anyone else? Hazrat Hind (RA). One sight of Rasoolallah Sallahu Alaihi WaSalam with Iman and then leaving the world on this Iman. Who are we to give them the benfit of doubt?

Yazeed is a different matter.

Just a clarification. We're talking about Rehmatullah Alaih (ra) and not RadiAllahu Anha (RA) regarding Yazeed? I meant there is a tiny minority that uses (ra) for Yazeed. Most of the Ummah doesn't use that for him.

[Brother_MGS]

As previous posts on this thread have point out it is for the sake of praise. As Sister Fatema pointed out for the Ahle Bayt saying AlaiyhiSalaam increases purity not much more. There are outstandingly strong arguements for using AlaiyhiSalaam, this is not a major issue. Unfortunately what happened on Ummavi channel during the series on Mawla Kiynaat Mawla Ali(AS)was massively blown out of proportion.

It is saddening to see that people are argueing over even how to send peace upon the Ahle bayt. Bughz e Ahle Bayt is a topic of its own and it is very evident today.

[Desert-Sheikh]

Treehouse, on 09 July 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

DS don't get me wrong I wasn't commenting on 'Alaihi Salam'.

I wasn't targeting you but just pointed out that another tiny minority exists who claim to be inherents of Syedi Ala Hazrat but actually carry a doggy agenda against Ahle-bait in the name of Akibrs.

[wannachange]

Desert-Sheikh, on 10 July 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

I wasn't targeting you but just pointed out that another tiny minority exists who claim to be inherents of Syedi Ala Hazrat but actually carry a doggy agenda against Ahle-bait in the name of Akibrs.

Hey hows ti goin bro

wassalaamu alaykum WR ALLAH WB

[wannachange]

Assalaamu alaykum WR ALLAH WB

I used to wonder why people use AS for the ahlebait..
As the Prophet SAW is khairu khalqilaah how we pray for him SAW should be different from how we pray for his sahabah/family in my opinion. Also the ayah in the Quran says that Allah SAW sends blessings on the nabi SAW not his ahlul bayt or sahabah. If this was the right thing to do then surely the Prophet SAW himself would have done it first and it would be a well established sunnah around which we’d have no debate today. Simple as that...I think.


Wassalaamu alaykum WR ALLAH WB

[Mudassar-Rana]

wannachange, on 11 July 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Assalaamu alaykum WR ALLAH WB

I used to wonder why people use AS for the ahlebait..
As the Prophet SAW is khairu khalqilaah how we pray for him SAW should be different from how we pray for his sahabah/family in my opinion. Also the ayah in the Quran says that Allah SAW sends blessings on the nabi SAW not his ahlul bayt or sahabah. If this was the right thing to do then surely the Prophet SAW himself would have done it first and it would be a well established sunnah around which we’d have no debate today. Simple as that...I think.


Wassalaamu alaykum WR ALLAH WB

I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the classical scholars used alaihisalam for ahlul bayt ... though to be fair its not a big issue. Why wouldnt you wish to send peace on the family of the prophet a.s? Scholars such as sheikh ninowy and yaqobi see nothing wrong with it either. Or if you want to go back further then there isnt much better than imam bukhari who repeatedly used it. Many have said it was the way of the sahaba too. After all umm al momineen Aisha Siddiqa reported that she asked why her father Hadhrat Abu Bakr r.a was staring at Syedna Ali a.s and he replied because rasool allah s.a.w said it was worship.

Further when you read durood e ibrahimi in your salah you say exactly the same thing. i.e send durood and salaam on hadhrat ibrahim and his children and nabi a.s and his family. So technically speaking its forming part of your salaah.

What the real reason is ... and some admit this others dont is that it is a practice of the shia. Those like the wahabi and many deobandi who take a strict view against the shia thus dislike any practice that associates you with them. Others wont admit its anti shia thing so will try to justify it in an intellectual manner. One of them being the trend of incorporating this discussion into who was more superior in rank debate (i.e Ali a.s or Abu bakr r.a) or simply arguing its a biddah etc.

[objective-enquirer]

brother wasim has asked me via pm to reply so here it is.

the difference amongst the classical scholars on the whole was not about alay al-salam at all but rather it was about the word al-salat like we say it upon the Blessed Prophet(s). What actually happened was that banu umayya had started to say salaay for their kings such as muawiya sallalhu alayhi etc. when umar ibn abd al-aziz came to power for three years he banned this practice of sending salaat on the umayyad kings. However, the issue 'alay al-salaam' has never been a point of contention amonst the 98% of scholars. the disagreement had always been about the word 'salaat' and some mulla like khurshid sabri have deceptively on TV used the debate of ulama about salaat and applied it onto the salaam though these are two different words and two different issues.
From the camp who even considered salaat permissible for non-prophets are imam ahmed ibn hanbal, imam bukhari, imam abu ad'ud and tens of other prominent scholars. their evidence is the saying of Imam Ali in which he sent salaat on hazrat umar whereas the evidence for the other group is the practice umar II for banning for it umayyad tyrants.

so the debate was not to do with salaam but about salaat. all the references except for may one or two are about salaat. this is the common chakkar that the mulla gives to the people. he shifts the debate and references about salaat and sticks on salaam.

However, that being the context let me tell you that almost all our books on hadith, tasfir etc use alay al-salaam for ahl ab-bayt. Imam bukhari for example entitles a chapter on Syeda Fatima zahra(s) by saying alaha al-salaam for her. Does that mean Bukhari was doing makruh stuff??

imam fakhr al-din al-razi says that ahl al-bayt share five things with the Prophet (s) and the salaam is one of them..see al-sawaiq al-muhriqa.

hazrat shah abd al-haq muhaddith dehlavi, the first teacher of sunnis in the sub continent explicitly writes in his ashiyatul lam`aat that it is the PRCATICE of our aslaaf to say alay al-salaam for ahl al-bayt.

shah abdul aziz dehalvi his fatawa aziziyya says that alay al-salaam for the non-prohets is allowed. also allama ahmed saeed kazmi sb wrote an article to prove its permissiblity.

this is just the tip of the ice berg about the issue that i can think of from the top of my head.

finally, the the hanafi usulist imam al-shashi (d. 325) in his usul al-shahshi says the following:

الصلوة على النبي و اصحابه و السلام على ابي حنيفة و احبابه

salaat be upon the Prophet and his companions and Salaam be upon Abu hanifah and his companions.


this is what imam shahshi said at the end of third and begining of fourth century. This book is taught in darse nizami as the first book on usul al-fiqh. its subject is law so for al-shahshi to send 'salaam' on a non-prohet abu hanifa means it is considered allowed prior to any disgreement by others such as kahafaji who died in 1096 almost half a century after shah abd al-haq dehalvi!! however, in usul al-shashi it sent upon abu hanifa independently. what I mean is that look at the salaat on companions or salaam in both cases they are governed by the word 'and' salaat on Prohet 'and' on companions. Upon the Prophet it is directly sent and upin the companions it sent in a secondary fashion. Without the sentence precdeing the 'and' it will not make sense for the companions: salaat be upon the Prophet [and on companions] the brackets will only make sense if you have 'salaat be upon the Prophet first.

similarly, Salaam be upon Abu hanifah and his companions is also an idependent sentence, it has its own mubtada...subject/object. it also sent independently: Salaam on abu hanifah...will make sense on its own but [on his companions] will not hence the first is mustaqil and the second is bil-taba`.

I hope you understand this and I am sure all the students of Islamic sciences will grasp it. mulla khurshid's another lie is about the above usage and he said that salaam is not sent indepedently. it amounts to saying 2+2=5. EVen the deobandi commentators on this say that salaam is used indepedently for abu hanifa!

anyway, when you can say alay al-salaam for abu hanifa in hanafi classical law manuals for centries then what is wrong with saying: Imam Jafar al-sadiq alay al-salaam. the majority of ahl al-sunna have done so for centruies and ulama have issued fatwas in favour and have used it themselves. These people have home-made evidences on the issue and firstly they confuse the references between salaat and apply it onto salaam and secondly without sleight of hand they do not have any evidence. two or three people have written aganist it but we have the majority on the other side for permissibility of alay al-salaam.

[wannachange]

Mudassar-Rana, on 12 July 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the classical scholars used alaihisalam for ahlul bayt ... though to be fair its not a big issue. Why wouldnt you wish to send peace on the family of the prophet a.s? Scholars such as sheikh ninowy and yaqobi see nothing wrong with it either. Or if you want to go back further then there isnt much better than imam bukhari who repeatedly used it. Many have said it was the way of the sahaba too. After all umm al momineen Aisha Siddiqa reported that she asked why her father Hadhrat Abu Bakr r.a was staring at Syedna Ali a.s and he replied because rasool allah s.a.w said it was worship.

Further when you read durood e ibrahimi in your salah you say exactly the same thing. i.e send durood and salaam on hadhrat ibrahim and his children and nabi a.s and his family. So technically speaking its forming part of your salaah.

What the real reason is ... and some admit this others dont is that it is a practice of the shia. Those like the wahabi and many deobandi who take a strict view against the shia thus dislike any practice that associates you with them. Others wont admit its anti shia thing so will try to justify it in an intellectual manner. One of them being the trend of incorporating this discussion into who was more superior in rank debate (i.e Ali a.s or Abu bakr r.a) or simply arguing its a biddah etc.

Assalaamu alaykum WR ALLAH WB

Sorry for the late reply.

It’s true I do find it weird because shi’is us AS for the ahlebait.


About sending prayers on them in salat, you know my pops also said that once but I didn’t know the difference between aalihi and ahlili back then. Infact, we are supposed to say the former which means followers if I'm not mistaken (though in the video Shaykh Mohammed translates it to mean family..?) So in salah we send peace not only on the ahle bait but the entire Muslim Ummah.


Also its not about not wanting to send blessings on the family of our Habib SAW, its about expressing and showing respect for the other Prophets Like Issa AS and Musa AS. I don't think its fair to say that the ahlebait are on the same spiritual level as the Prophets. There has to be some distinction between they way we pray on them and the way we send prayers upon our Prophet SAW. just like we use SAW for Prophet Muhammad SAW and AS for the rest of the Prophets ( though there's nothing haram about saying SAW after the other Prophets too of course). Anyways, that's as much as my simple mind can understand. I wish we knew what the reasons most scholars prefered not to us AS. I assume"most" only because bro enquirer mentioned a handful(relatively) of scholars out of the hundreds in our heritage Wallahu a'lam.


Thanks for your reply , both you and knowledgeable bro enquirer's. Peace out and ..what the heck peace in too.


wassalaamu alaykum WR ALLAH WB