Spirit Of Islam: Imam Abu Hanifa And The Early Hanafis Allowed Drinking Alcohol (except For Wine) As Long As You Didn't Get Drunk - Spirit Of Islam

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Imam Abu Hanifa And The Early Hanafis Allowed Drinking Alcohol (except For Wine) As Long As You Didn't Get Drunk

Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:24 PM (#1) User is offline   naqshbandihaqqani 

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Salam,

I was myself quite surprised to hear about this given the ' common knowledge ' that 'sharaab is haram' but when I investigated the claims I found
them true.
Here is what Ibn Rushd writes about the issue in his great book about the differences of opinion amongst various fiqh schools, Bidayat al Mujtahid.

(See attached image)

According to this, as long as you don't drink wine from grapes and don't get drunk (and the Hanafi definition of drunk is when you cannot tell a male and female apart!)
then all other forms of alcohol become permissible such as beer, spirits, vodka, etc.

It is amazing the difference of opinion that exists in Islam classically and the rigid, one-size-must-fit-all- Islam that has reached us today.

(I have just attached the summary. Ibn Rushd then goes on to give the textual proofs for all the various opinions including that of the opinion of the Hanafis quoted above.)

how come our ulema never tell us things like this?
"My intercession is for my sinful followers" - hadith of Sayyidina Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam
Shay'an Lillah Ya Shaykh Abd al Qadir! (q)
"Ana'l Haqq!" - Husayn ibn Mansoor al Hallaj (q)
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:35 PM (#2) User is offline   HanafiUK 

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 sunniskeptic, on 23 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Salam, I was myself quite surprised to hear about this given the ' common knowledge ' that 'sharaab is haram' but when I investigated the claims I found them true. Here is what Ibn Rushd writes about the issue in his great book about the differences of opinion amongst various fiqh schools, Bidayat al Mujtahid. (See attached image) According to this, as long as you don't drink wine from grapes and don't get drunk (and the Hanafi definition of drunk is when you cannot tell a male and female apart!) then all other forms of alcohol become permissible such as beer, spirits, vodka, etc. It is amazing the difference of opinion that exists in Islam classically and the rigid, one-size-must-fit-all- Islam that has reached us today. (I have just attached the summary. Ibn Rushd then goes on to give the textual proofs for all the various opinions including that of the opinion of the Hanafis quoted above.) how come our ulema never tell us things like this?


There may have been difference of opinions at that time but later on the ulema decide on ijima and that is obviously that all alcholic drinks are prohibited. This is fitna of today that we look up older texts and try to mislead muslims, but forgetting that later on scholars (ahlus sunnah wal jamaah) agreed that alcohol is not permitted and even a drop of alcohol is not permitted and this opinion continued for 1400years. So it is wrong to look up old matters and try to bring them up and cause fitna. I am not refering this to you but saying it generally.
May Allah Swt forgive me if i am wrong but this is what i know and this is why our ulema never tell us this kind of stuff. We cannot understand this kind of stuff.

Its like for example, Many muslim scholars claimed tv etc is shaitaan. but now everybody agrees that it is permissible as long as you dont have unislamic programs on it, but imagine after 1000 years, somebody says, TV is shaitaan and it is haram, even Islamic programs and claim some top scholar claimed this 1000 years back, but they dont know why the scholar said it is haram etc and plus doesnt know if its haram then why did no scholar object for 1000 years.

So its kinda similar with the above sharaab issue. and many big scholars condemmed each other too 1000 years back but now we all love them and respect them because we cannot understand these kind of things and in order to go in them it will cause fitna and misunderstanding, this is one of the reason why scholars dont tell us these things.
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:58 PM (#3) User is offline   naqshbandihaqqani 

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Brother Hanafi,

I respect your opinion but how can there be ijma when even the founders of the Hanafi school allowed it?
Also, isn't it insulting to our intelligence to be told, 'they don't tell us because we wouldn't understand!' It is not an intricate
theological issue like wahdat al wajood or something it is simply about what kinds of alcohol were permitted and which were not...

I'm not trying to cause fitna but for the latter day Hanafis to go completely the opposite of the earlier scholars...? And remember don't we believe the
earlier scholars are greater--e.g. Imam Abu Hanifa was a Tabi'ii?

Also, Ibn Rushd lived in in the 12th century -- died in 1198 -- and he is writing in his book (see my attachment) that this is the opinion of the Hanafis
even of his time. That means that from the 7th century to the 12th i.e. 500 years the Hanafis (and some others) held this position...! It would be interesting to see when the Hanafi opinion changed...
and, in fact, Allama Qari Badr al Din al Ayni is arguing for the same position i.e. only grape wine and date-based wine is absolutely haram, other types of alcohol are permissible as long as you don't get drunk as late as 14th/15th century when he wrote his Umdat al Qari Sharh al Bukhari...

Isn't that interesting?
"My intercession is for my sinful followers" - hadith of Sayyidina Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam
Shay'an Lillah Ya Shaykh Abd al Qadir! (q)
"Ana'l Haqq!" - Husayn ibn Mansoor al Hallaj (q)
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:05 PM (#4) User is offline   seeker 

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Yes it would be interesting to research as a matter of interest.

But just to be unequivocal: we have a clear Qur'anic verse, the Sunnah where no alcohol was ever drunk, and an Ijmaa' of today's scholars. OK, I agree that there may have been a discussion in earlier generations amongst those who knew the former two elements, just as there were discussions on many things (some which may surprise you more than this, in fact). But that's where it is left - the discussion table.

We as laymen - and indeed that is what we are, no matter how many Al-Maghrib courses we attend - cannot look at the discussion table of the scholars and start picking and choosing. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, not by any means, but jurisprudence is a deep field and unless one dedicates their life to penetrating it, we have to know our limits.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:05 PM (#5) User is offline   Mudassar-Rana 

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 seeker, on 23 April 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Yes it would be interesting to research as a matter of interest.

But just to be unequivocal: we have a clear Qur'anic verse, the Sunnah where no alcohol was ever drunk, and an Ijmaa' of today's scholars. OK, I agree that there may have been a discussion in earlier generations amongst those who knew the former two elements, just as there were discussions on many things (some which may surprise you more than this, in fact). But that's where it is left - the discussion table.

We as laymen - and indeed that is what we are, no matter how many Al-Maghrib courses we attend - cannot look at the discussion table of the scholars and start picking and choosing. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, not by any means, but jurisprudence is a deep field and unless one dedicates their life to penetrating it, we have to know our limits.



Agree with you bro jurisprudence is a very deep field - and it shows the level of inquisition that scholars engaged in and the varying amount of opinions on any issue. I believe it was healthy for the ummah to have such a variety of opinions and not beat the living daylights out of each other - contrast this to today and we are very far behind. But i also do beleive that without the sanction of an islamic state it would be very difficult to have a) highly qualified mujtahids, and thus B inquisition into jurisprudence.

the fact that mujtahids are doing the studying and giving different opinions based on text means that all the opinions are equally valid.

For us to follow it today based on this discussion would probably be a bit like wishful thinking on a par with wishing muta was halal! its something that might appeal to our own ego's whether its right or not and whether we have had the same level of discussion as a thousand years is probably another discussion altogether.
my brothers are those who will believe in me, without having seen me.” [Ahmad, Musnad]

Jaag Muslmaan Jaag Muslmaan ... kitna naacho gai ghairon ki dhun par?Jis ummat mein rab ne sher paida kiye aaj wohi gheedar ka libaas apna muqaddar samjh bethi
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:57 PM (#6) User is offline   arzooemadinah 

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O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, Of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination) that ye may prosper. (Al Maeda; 5:90)

Satan’s plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of God, and from prayer: Will ye not then refrain? (Al-Maeda; 5:91)
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:12 PM (#7) User is offline   YaNabi-Chemist 

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SS, do you drink alcoholic beverages?

This post has been edited by YaNabi-Chemist: 23 April 2012 - 10:14 PM

Feel free to PM me if you have any health issues / ailments.

Confidentiality will be maintained.
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:28 PM (#8) User is offline   Fatema-the-resplendent 

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I don't think it's right to ask personal questions. I hope the question is not the result of him raising a question about the validity of consumption of alcohol based on Scholars of the past.
...And my mercy embraces all things.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:05 PM (#9) User is offline   objective-enquirer 

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for some reason i cannot see or download the attachment.
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:26 PM (#10) User is offline   Know-the-Ledge 

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Where in the attatchment does it say anything but a declaration of blanket prohibition? Can someone type it out, as maybe I'm missing something (?)
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:30 PM (#11) User is offline   Know-the-Ledge 

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Ok I zoomed in, a very minority opinion of a small group of scholars which holds no relevance in the face of an overwhelming majority which supports a blanket prohibition.

It's misleading to say 'according to this you can drink small quantities', it was a minority opinion by some scholars, perhaps based upon an inexperience with the potential ills of alcohol and how dubious it is.
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:45 PM (#12) User is offline   Mudassar-Rana 

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 I.Will.Back, on 23 April 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

Ok I zoomed in, a very minority opinion of a small group of scholars which holds no relevance in the face of an overwhelming majority which supports a blanket prohibition.

It's misleading to say 'according to this you can drink small quantities', it was a minority opinion by some scholars, perhaps based upon an inexperience with the potential ills of alcohol and how dubious it is.



you disappoint me bro ktl - I was ready to say the immortal line "shaken not stirred" at my local snooker club! looks like ill have to stick to Coke! :lol:
my brothers are those who will believe in me, without having seen me.” [Ahmad, Musnad]

Jaag Muslmaan Jaag Muslmaan ... kitna naacho gai ghairon ki dhun par?Jis ummat mein rab ne sher paida kiye aaj wohi gheedar ka libaas apna muqaddar samjh bethi
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:47 AM (#13) User is online   Qadri-Jilani 

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Don't forget the hadith of the Holy prophet (peace be upon him) that states the principle: "whatever intoxicates in large amounts is haram in small amounts"

?? ???? ????? ?????? ????

This hadith is reported in Tirmidhi, Nisa'i, Abu Dawud, Ibn Maja, Ahmad and so on

Maslak-e-Ahl-e-Sunnat

jarahat al-sinani laha'l-tiyamu ma yaltamu jarahat al-lisani
ei biradar chu 'aqibat khakast, khaak shawesh az ankei khaak shawee
apni millat par qiyas aqwam-e-maghrib sei na kar, khas hei tarkeeb mein qawm-e-Rasool-e-Hashmi
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:23 PM (#14) User is offline   Know-the-Ledge 

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 Mudassar-Rana, on 23 April 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

you disappoint me bro ktl - I was ready to say the immortal line "shaken not stirred" at my local snooker club! looks like ill have to stick to Coke! :lol:


I guess we'll have to stick to jumping into the back of a taxi and shouting the other immortal order of "follow that car" :lol:


I.Will.Back
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:52 PM (#15) User is offline   naqshbandihaqqani 

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YN Chemist,
No, I do not drink alcohol (even though it is nobody else's business!) -- but just to make that clear!

But it is an interesting discovery about this difference of opinion as it was held by a large number of scholars not just a few (as the attachment shows) although still
a minority and some of them were giants like Imam Abu Hanifa!

Brother QJ, those scholars who held this opinion like Imam e Azam, al-Aynii and Abu Yusuf etc. have explained that hadith which you quoted in a different
way...
"My intercession is for my sinful followers" - hadith of Sayyidina Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam
Shay'an Lillah Ya Shaykh Abd al Qadir! (q)
"Ana'l Haqq!" - Husayn ibn Mansoor al Hallaj (q)
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:06 PM (#16) User is offline   naqshbandihaqqani 

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Brothers and Sisters,
Here is a hypothetical thought experiment. Please give me your views and tell me what is wrong with it:

Muslim X (drinking a can of beer): Assalamu alaykum
Muslim y: astaghfirullah brother why are you drinking beer don't you know it is haram?
X: Actually brother I'm a Hanafi and according to Imam Abu Hanifa beer doesn't come under the category
of haram because it is not classified as khamr according to Abu Hanifa since it is not made from grapes or dates.
Y. Err...uhm...astaghfirullah...but the latter Hanafis gave a fatwa that all intoxicants are haram...
X: Yes but Abu Hanifa and many others said it wasn't so why should I not follow the ruling of the founder of the Hanafi
School?

please discuss.



"My intercession is for my sinful followers" - hadith of Sayyidina Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam
Shay'an Lillah Ya Shaykh Abd al Qadir! (q)
"Ana'l Haqq!" - Husayn ibn Mansoor al Hallaj (q)
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:20 PM (#17) User is offline   seeker 

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 sunniskeptic, on 24 April 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Brothers and Sisters,
Here is a hypothetical thought experiment. Please give me your views and tell me what is wrong with it:

Muslim X (drinking a can of beer): Assalamu alaykum
Muslim y: astaghfirullah brother why are you drinking beer don't you know it is haram?
X: Actually brother I'm a Hanafi and according to Imam Abu Hanifa beer doesn't come under the category
of haram because it is not classified as khamr according to Abu Hanifa since it is not made from grapes or dates.
Y. Err...uhm...astaghfirullah...but the latter Hanafis gave a fatwa that all intoxicants are haram...
X: Yes but Abu Hanifa and many others said it wasn't so why should I not follow the ruling of the founder of the Hanafi
School?

please discuss.


Firstly, I dispute that the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa is being represented accurately; this is a detailed issue and unless the specifics are given then there can be no following. From what I know, the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa is that alcohol is not najis (impure) and pure to consume if it is not used as an intoxicant, regardless of quantity. So something like beer, for instance, would be outright haraam and there is no permission even in small, non-intoxicating quantities. Somelike like alcohol hand gel, on the other hand, which is not something used as an intoxicant would be taahir to use for cleaning one's hands (I think the Shafi'i school doesn't consider it pure, I'm not sure though).

Secondly, even if I take what you said as the alleged opinion of the Imam, sources of law are four:
1) Qur'an
2) Sunnah
3) Ijmaa'
4) Qiyaas

If you want to be a Salafi and go "Qur'an and hadith only" then one is forced to accept that beer is haraam.
If you want to be a Muqallid and follow the Hanafi school, then there is an Ijmaa' of today's Hanafi scholars that beer is haraam.

There is no loophole whichever way you look at it.

The mistake in rooting around old texts, primary sources and secondary sources is the same mistake that Shaykh Nasiruddeen Al-Albani made. One is in need of scholarly training and teaching before digging into these Fiqhi masaa'il, because we need to contextualise that knowledge. And if we approach it without the training, we need to understand that we should not act upon nor derive conclusions from those texts - but this is very difficult to do because the ego becomes inflated and we think we know what we're talking about!

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:08 PM (#18) User is offline   HanafiUK 

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 sunniskeptic, on 23 April 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Brother Hanafi,

I respect your opinion but how can there be ijma when even the founders of the Hanafi school allowed it?
Also, isn't it insulting to our intelligence to be told, 'they don't tell us because we wouldn't understand!' It is not an intricate
theological issue like wahdat al wajood or something it is simply about what kinds of alcohol were permitted and which were not...

I'm not trying to cause fitna but for the latter day Hanafis to go completely the opposite of the earlier scholars...? And remember don't we believe the
earlier scholars are greater--e.g. Imam Abu Hanifa was a Tabi'ii?

Also, Ibn Rushd lived in in the 12th century -- died in 1198 -- and he is writing in his book (see my attachment) that this is the opinion of the Hanafis
even of his time. That means that from the 7th century to the 12th i.e. 500 years the Hanafis (and some others) held this position...! It would be interesting to see when the Hanafi opinion changed...
and, in fact, Allama Qari Badr al Din al Ayni is arguing for the same position i.e. only grape wine and date-based wine is absolutely haram, other types of alcohol are permissible as long as you don't get drunk as late as 14th/15th century when he wrote his Umdat al Qari Sharh al Bukhari...

Isn't that interesting?


Yes i understand your point brother, It is intersting to know how many different opinions scholars had etc, and to be honest there are many more different opinions they have, it would prob shock us. One person i know, used to hold meetings in somebody house and he was like telling us many sahih hadith in Sahih Bukhari which our scholars never tell us about, and he was like, look we dont follow this, nobody tells us about this, i forgot the hadith though.

But for me I am too scared to open up and talk about scholarly issues which were said 1000add years back as i believe i could get misguded by these issues which dont benefit me in anyway. If Ahlus Sunnah scholars of today have ijma that certain thing is not allowed then i dont follow it or stay quiet. The reason is, they are the scholars/Muhadiths. Its like their are certain islamic groups today, who follow no scholars and think they are scholars, and some who ignore all scholars from 1400 years, and to keep their movement going, they open up old disputes to cause fitna.
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:30 PM (#19) User is offline   arzooemadinah 

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 sunniskeptic, on 24 April 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Brothers and Sisters,
Here is a hypothetical thought experiment. Please give me your views and tell me what is wrong with it:

Muslim X (drinking a can of beer): Assalamu alaykum
Muslim y: astaghfirullah brother why are you drinking beer don't you know it is haram?
X: Actually brother I'm a Hanafi and according to Imam Abu Hanifa beer doesn't come under the category
of haram because it is not classified as khamr according to Abu Hanifa since it is not made from grapes or dates.
Y. Err...uhm...astaghfirullah...but the latter Hanafis gave a fatwa that all intoxicants are haram...
X: Yes but Abu Hanifa and many others said it wasn't so why should I not follow the ruling of the founder of the Hanafi
School?

please discuss.






you will go with quraan or go with few hanfi elders , ijmaa and qiass can change fatwas so why you beating behind the bush . Quraan says haram so haram.
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:23 PM (#20) User is offline   seeker 

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 sunniskeptic, on 24 April 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Brothers and Sisters,
Here is a hypothetical thought experiment. Please give me your views and tell me what is wrong with it:

Muslim X (drinking a can of beer): Assalamu alaykum
Muslim y: astaghfirullah brother why are you drinking beer don't you know it is haram?
X: Actually brother I'm a Hanafi and according to Imam Abu Hanifa beer doesn't come under the category
of haram because it is not classified as khamr according to Abu Hanifa since it is not made from grapes or dates.
Y. Err...uhm...astaghfirullah...but the latter Hanafis gave a fatwa that all intoxicants are haram...
X: Yes but Abu Hanifa and many others said it wasn't so why should I not follow the ruling of the founder of the Hanafi
School?

please discuss.



The question is a straw man fallacy, as Imam Abu Hanifa's position would not have allowed beer in ANY quantity.
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