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The Crusades And The Sad State Of The Ummah Today

Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:52 PM (#21) User is offline   SunniSword 

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Just to re-ignite this old discussion

how things change in just one year!

Turkey is up in flames

Wahabis with radical ideologies killing soldier in London street. Anjum Choudary giving us all a bad name in the press.

Sectarian tensions in Pakistan and the middle east. Sunnis killing Shia based on the takfir of intolerant Mullahs like Irfan Shah Masshadi who have been spewing sectarian hatred for years.

Surely these Mullahs whether Sunni or Wahabi need to be brought to account for the brainwashing of young Muslims?

Muslims are now being targetted by far right groups in response!

Sad state just got sadder

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:27 PM (#22) User is online   naqshbandihaqqani 

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To the last poster -- it is despicable how you had to have a go at Sayyid Irfan Shah sahib --who has nothing to do with any of the
things you listed --whilst complaining of sectarian hatred.

You are a typical example of the problem with Muslims today -- petty personal vendettas/pir wars -- make us lose sight of the
greater picture.

Sayyid Irfan Shah isn't any different from any of the other mullahs/pirs out their who are only expressing what they have been taught.
Give somebody a medieval education in the 21st century -- Dars e Nizami is a medieval syllabus which all maulvis/pirs study --
and don't be surprised if their methods seem out of touch. It is a general malaise we suffer from and not restricted to any individual alim or pir.

Have some shame and stop causung fitna and hate-mongering.



O marvel! A garden amidst the flames! My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles, and a convent for Christian monks,A temple for idols, and the pilgrim's Ka'ba,
the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran. I follow the religion of Love: whatever way
Love's camels take, that is my religion and my faith.

-Ibn Arabi
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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:30 PM (#23) User is online   naqshbandihaqqani 

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View PostFekay, on 10 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

So where does that leave Islam in your point of view?


As I said the central truths of Islam are eternal but I think some of its legalistic aspects needs to be modernised or at
least interpreted in today's context.
e.g. the hadd punishments.




O marvel! A garden amidst the flames! My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles, and a convent for Christian monks,A temple for idols, and the pilgrim's Ka'ba,
the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran. I follow the religion of Love: whatever way
Love's camels take, that is my religion and my faith.

-Ibn Arabi
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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:47 PM (#24) User is offline   Fekay 

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View Postsunniskeptic, on 13 June 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

As I said the central truths of Islam are eternal but I think some of its legalistic aspects needs to be modernised or at
least interpreted in today's context.
e.g. the hadd punishments.


I agree with you. I think there needs to be a lot of discussion/debate(not the point scoring kind) amongst scholars to reinterpret the antiquity left in the religion. There was a thread started time-ago by a user called major screw loose about the expiry date of fatwas. I think that was a good point. Maybe it's time we treat interpretations in such a way. After all, Islam is a religion for all time and for all worlds. Mankind and Jinn.

The central truths about Islam will always remain the same ,but the rest has to be interpreted as society advances.
.
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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:43 PM (#25) User is online   naqshbandihaqqani 

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View PostFekay, on 13 June 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

I agree with you. I think there needs to be a lot of discussion/debate(not the point scoring kind) amongst scholars to reinterpret the antiquity left in the religion. There was a thread started time-ago by a user called major screw loose about the expiry date of fatwas. I think that was a good point. Maybe it's time we treat interpretations in such a way. After all, Islam is a religion for all time and for all worlds. Mankind and Jinn.

The central truths about Islam will always remain the same ,but the rest has to be interpreted as society advances.


Bro Fekay,
The problem is that by saying we need to reinterpret parts of the antiquity left in the religion we open ourselves to the
accusation of kufr and heresy and of no longer being 'real Sunnis'. So how can we reinterpret things if anyone who attempts
to do so is immediately thrown out of Sunniyat/Islam?!
O marvel! A garden amidst the flames! My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles, and a convent for Christian monks,A temple for idols, and the pilgrim's Ka'ba,
the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran. I follow the religion of Love: whatever way
Love's camels take, that is my religion and my faith.

-Ibn Arabi
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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:52 PM (#26) User is online   naqshbandihaqqani 

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Bro QadriMuslim,

I agree with you in principal but the truth is that even on this forum we are not united! And sorry to say all of us are equally
to blame. We support our local maulvi or pir against the rest of the world -- it is 'my pir is right and if you disagree you are a XYZ'
and all groups are equally guilty.

For example why do we we have so many separate Sunni jamaats? or why does one city have so many separate mosques -- this is the Barelvi-Irfan Shah mosque, this is the Barelvi-Abdul Qadir mosque, this is the Barelvi-Akhtar Raza mosque, this is the Dawate Islami mosque, this is the Madani-Miyan mosque, this is the Indian mosque, this is is the Pakistani mosque, this is the Bengali mosque, this is the Naqshbandi mosque, this is the Salafi mosque, this is the Shia mosque...etc. etc.

And we are all hypocrites because, hands on heart, how many of us would go Tomorrow and pray namaz behind a Deobandi or a Ahle Hadith or any other person WE consider non-Sunni?

Would you brother QJ?
O marvel! A garden amidst the flames! My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles, and a convent for Christian monks,A temple for idols, and the pilgrim's Ka'ba,
the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran. I follow the religion of Love: whatever way
Love's camels take, that is my religion and my faith.

-Ibn Arabi
1

Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:20 PM (#27) User is offline   Mudassar-Rana 

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View Postsunniskeptic, on 13 June 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Bro QadriMuslim,

I agree with you in principal but the truth is that even on this forum we are not united! And sorry to say all of us are equally
to blame. We support our local maulvi or pir against the rest of the world -- it is 'my pir is right and if you disagree you are a XYZ'
and all groups are equally guilty.

For example why do we we have so many separate Sunni jamaats? or why does one city have so many separate mosques -- this is the Barelvi-Irfan Shah mosque, this is the Barelvi-Abdul Qadir mosque, this is the Barelvi-Akhtar Raza mosque, this is the Dawate Islami mosque, this is the Madani-Miyan mosque, this is the Indian mosque, this is is the Pakistani mosque, this is the Bengali mosque, this is the Naqshbandi mosque, this is the Salafi mosque, this is the Shia mosque...etc. etc.

And we are all hypocrites because, hands on heart, how many of us would go Tomorrow and pray namaz behind a Deobandi or a Ahle Hadith or any other person WE consider non-Sunni?

Would you brother QJ?


How many would go to pray in the first place?

Any malaise is first and foremost intellectual.

The malaise found in the scholarly classes is also found in the general population otherwise they wouldnt be able to get away with it for so long. They are only providing us with what we want to listen to.

The plethora of masjids is purely down to "chaudry complex" amongst people whose behaviour is worse than marassi's. The slightest disagreement is cause enough to up sticks and set up your own mosque. Literally within 30 seconds walk in my area 2 different mosques have permission to give adhan on the loudspeaker? What have they told the council in order to get permission for this? i.e that we are different denominations? When in reality both are sunni, both are hanafi? So the differences arent even doctrinal (i.e to do with creed).

A lot of it boils down to ego, comfort zones etc. We make our own crowds and get comfortable and then in reality when positions become set in stone its very difficult to convince anyone that we are the same.

I agree that the brother shoudnt really single out a particular pir because it gives the stench of being partisan.

The reality to me is that Allah is Al Haq and therefore truth is above all - we align ourselves to truth because that is what our rabb is, what our rasool a.s is and what the shahadah teaches us. When our "denominations", groups, sub groups, pir's, leaders etc become more important than allah and rasool a.s - unfortunately thats when the proverbial dog poo hits the fan.

For the individual worshipper it stains our niyyah's and thus what reward will we get from our rabb? Eg: Are we celebrating milad - to honour rasool allah a.s or just to poke fun at our salafi neighbour? are we giving money at jummah - just for the buzz of hearing ur name on the loudspeaker or for rabb ta'ala? Is it then a surprise that rabb has forsaken us to die a death of ignominy?
my brothers are those who will believe in me, without having seen me.” [Ahmad, Musnad]

Jaag Muslmaan Jaag Muslmaan ... kitna naacho gai ghairon ki dhun par?Jis ummat mein rab ne sher paida kiye aaj wohi gheedar ka libaas apna muqaddar samjh bethi
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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:48 PM (#28) User is offline   Desert-Sheikh 

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View Postsunniskeptic, on 13 June 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Sayyid Irfan Shah isn't any different from any of the other mullahs/pirs out their who are only expressing what they have been taught. Give somebody a medieval education in the 21st century -- Dars e Nizami is a medieval syllabus which all maulvis/pirs study --
and don't be surprised if their methods seem out of touch. It is a general malaise we suffer from and not restricted to any individual alim or pir.


Very well said, I agree completely!
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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:39 AM (#29) User is offline   adnanghurabaa 

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Salaam

Legal aspects of Islamic law can be subject to interpretation and fataawa issued by scholars (the key word being scholars) are subject to change and are specific to a time period but it can only be performed by someone who is qualified. This raises the question: Who is qualified?! Everyone has mufti appended to the beginning of their name. There has been a few points mentioned in this thread that i want to discuss:

Slavery was common before it was outlawed by the UN in the ~1950s. This is really the only time in history where there are a few super powers, whose power stretches across the globe, coming together to form international law. Islam leadership or any other leadership prior to this has never extended across the whole globe therefore practically banning slavery would not of been possible. Slaves are a result of war. Slaves have no real prospects and face danger, enslavement in some sense allowed for them to live safely (remember, the only other option usually was fleeing to another country to be enslaved there). Islam has always hinted at freedom for slaves, many of the expiations in Islam involve freeing of a slave. Notably, a free man is required to free and marry his slave girl in the event she fathers his child to preserve the dignity of the child. Islam has layed down rules for treatment of slaves. In todays age, we do not have slaves achievement of the UN we applaud but the indirect result is now we have people who are neither free or slaves in the developing world usually as a result of corruption (a long discussion). To say that Islamic law needs to be rethought due to its attitude to slavery is an unfair comment. There is no compulsion to have slaves, a world without any slaves is something we as Muslims would like and is compatible and even condoned by sharia.

As for the hadd punishments, which ones are not appropriate for todays age? Lets take the punishment of the adulterer. This punishment is unimplementable. Even if it was to be recorded, the hadd punishment would not apply because uprightness of the witnesses is a condition and a video recording cannot be tested as such. Even if someone was to admit to being an adulterer, the court would reject the testimony (and label the person mad!). The only way for this punishment to apply would be that two people went into public and had intercourse in such a manner where three upright people could clearly see penetration, this is almost impossible. This punishment to me seems to stop a great fitna happening - public sex (the discussion on the effects of sexual imagery comes to mind). This punishment cannot even be implemented as no islam leadership exists, so again I must ask, why does this unimplementable punishment need to be rethought?

I do agree though that we as Muslims have let our sunni/shia problems out of hand. We do need some sort of reform but this should be led by scholars with authority (very few scholars have authority). I think the main problem we have is a lack of understanding between schools/sects. Our lack of tolerance is the main problem as someone mentioned. Our sense as one body has faded away eg. In the arab world, tribal pride has seem to go the better of most people but then again as we all know, its rife in Pakistan also!

Regards,
Adnan
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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:41 AM (#30) User is offline   qadrimuslim 

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Salams all,

I have been away from the forum recently concentrating on other things and dealing with my own struggles.
This topic will always be at the forefront and things MUST change .. sooner than later

Bickering Sunni groups have led to an undeniable failure on our part. Some groups have profited on the division and Allah is watching who they are.

A friend of mine just returned from the Arab lands and has opened my eyes to many of our failures.. The most important one being the Pak o Hind Ulama failing the community they are supposed to lead. They are only Maulanas today because becoming an alim or a Pir was a way out of poverty for many of the poor. Rich people don't send their kids to Madrassah lol

The result is many knowledgeable people who have not instilled the spirit of Islam within themselves, yet they are preaching away, kafir kafir, swearing from the mimbar, wahabi lanat, shia kafir.
What we are left with is a mass of Ulama who concentrate on theological disputes and drag us commoners into their debates. While the dunya eats away at the little Iman we managed to develop in this corrupt world.

The process of producing Ulama needs to change! Until then, our condition will continue to suffer.
Inshallah there is much more to discuss on this topic

"The Sufi Must Submit to the Faqih" - Shaykh Ahmad Zurruq (RA)

Wa-la Ghalib Il-Allah "There is no Conqueror but Allah"
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