[qadrimuslim]

I was watching the recent programmes on the Crusades and was seriously questioning the state of the Ummah today - we are worse now than we were when the first Crusaders attacked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b01b3ftw

The whole reason for the downfall of the Muslims then and even now was bickering, hatred and resentment of each other and war between opposing camps. While at the same time the non-Muslim powers united, strengthened and took advantages of the cracks in our ranks.

It was only when Muslims were united under Salah-uddin Ayyubi (RA) and Rukn al-Din Baibars (RA) that things changed. I realise they were medieval times, but the Spirit of Islam that was present then, is missing now.

And it is the Spirit of Islam we should be striving to instill in our people. We should promote the common ideal that exists in every Muslim, and work with other groups/sects even if we have ideological differences. Sectarianism is the worst illness of the Ummah and Takfir of other groups has broken us down into pathetic small groups at each others necks.

Some Mullahs make a good living out of this sad situation and the puritanical Barelvis in our own ranks don't want Muslims to move forward but remain locked in this bitter status quo.

Our people need to fix the small problems to ever get close to fixing the BIG problem.

[warea]

There's no good in alliance with bidah for every bidah is misguidance. As for sectarianism, just apply your priorities right whereby kuffar enemy's of islam would be a greater evil then mubtadis. But there is still a long way to go for revival. The years of colonialism kept us back in the race and its necessary we setup our infrastructure, just as it was done by migrating to Medina after which the meccan pagans were fought.

[qalam]

Salam

I agree good points raised and now you know why I continuously state
No wonder the encash is in this state

Dr aq

[SunniSword]

Change is possible. We cannot keep blaming sides and external factors. The problem is internal. Colonialism came about as a result of our weaknesses. Yet we have still not learned from our mistakes.

Call it a revivial or resurgence. It is bound to happen soon. Our problem is the forces that are stopping us. But for how long? How long before the next technological development in the East? Oil revenue is being completely misused, but this could change if the right people take charge. The Arab spring? Start of a new direction? maybe. maybe not.

Salafis fighting Sufis. Sufis fighting Shia. And now Sufis fighting Sufis! Just great news for anyone wanting to divide and rule!!! Once you talk about unity, you are branded sulla kulli and the discussion stops right there. I wonder who invented the term? Sunni Sufis need to unite first. Just imagine all the bickering UK scholars all sitting round the same big table discussing issues like professional executive members! Imagine what we could acheive!

We have such great visionaries that could acheive so much if sat together. We need to find the tolerant scholars and force them to sit and talk about current affairs, just to name a few:

Abdal Hakim Murad
Pirzada Imdad Hussain
Shaykh Yaqubi (regular visitor)
Madni Mian (regular visitor)
Shaykh Yahya Ninowi (regular visitor)
Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani
Ahmad Nisar Baig Qadri
Alauddin Siddiqi
Abdul Qadir -as-Sufi
Tahir ul Qadri
Syed Zahid Hussain Razvi
Mufti Gul Rahman
Fiaz ul Hasan Qadri
Niaz ul Hasan Qadri
Yaar Muhammad Qadri
Rasool Bakhsh Saeedi


+ so many more who have potential but politics is keeping them away from the round table.

This is the BIG picture and I congratulate YN for even simply attempting to address it. It is the only website which looks at things from a birds eye view. Sad thing is that most people won't even notice the 'elephant in the living room' and won't even reflect on this sad state of affairs.

How many scholars actually discuss this? I can probably count them on one hand. Shaykh Hamza and Abdul Hakim Muraf are probably the only popular Scholars who try to invigorate the Spirit of Islam, but even they have become frustrated with the village mentality of the scholarly class.

So much to do..

[The-Mughal-Sister]

The biggest weapon the western world have against the Muslims is disunity, it is the most powerful weapon and doesn't need UN approval and is far more deadly than nuclear weapons put together. Disunity is rife in the Muslim world, the cracks allow outsiders to penetrate into the Muslim leaders so they will never join and gain a unified stance, and if the Muslim world ever did clench their fist or come together, this in itself is deadly to the western world.

This is why sects are busy engaged in the war of words with each other, the western world is out there robbing the oil taking over the world, which once upon a time Muslims had conquered but we're still preaching hate for our brother and sisters!

Vah Vah....well done. If only we spoke against the western world so vehemently rather than our own we wouldn't have Syria, Libya, Palestine crying to the UN/NATO, we could have dealt with the issue withing the Muslim word.

Kahan Salahuddin Ayyubi aur kaha aaj kal ke hate preachers!

What a stark contrast!

This post has been edited by The-Mughal-Sister: 06 March 2012 - 05:24 PM

[Mudassar-Rana]

excellent points bro qm.

We are in a perilous state no doubt about that. Infact though you compare it with the crusades i would say its worse. More comparable to the state of muslims in makkah. Once the crusaders went they muslims realised that political unity was foremost to counter it. Hence salahuddin fought the fatamids first, one of the reasons shia dont like him, and united the muslims under one leader.

Today we could be invaded a thousand times and we will not have a response. It is impossible to unite people on opinions or even beliefs because that human nature is that 2 people will have differing views on the same matter. The difference is that if them views are held sincerely and with respect there is no problem. The vital matter today is that these views are held by emotional and to a certain extent jahil people. Hence we resort to killing each other.

Our situation is summed up best by Lord Curzon a former British foreign minister

“The situation now is that Turkey is dead and will never rise again, because we have destroyed its moral strength, the Caliphate and Islam.

Syedna Ali a.s said this ummah will never be straightened without a caliph.

The above two quotes highlight both the cause of our ills but you will be able to count on one hand the amount of thinkers/ulema/pir sahiban who have identified it.

As seen on this forum day in day out - your beliefs are erroneous mine are the true ASWJ or the wahabi would say we follow the salaf correctly and you are on bidat etc.

I dont think we will get a caliphate very easily - the odds are heavily stacked against us. If western activities hinder its re-emergence our ignorance to the source of our ills makes matters much worse. Once it re-emerges ulema of all walks of life will say it was us who brought it back!!!

[warea]

Uniting for defending a external threat is useless if the unity itself is a internal threat. What use is defending the external if there is internal threat and disintegration & distortion of islam taking place by uniting with bidah ? There is a line between differences which do not take ppl beyond ahlus sunnah and those differences which do take ppl beyond ahlus sunnah. Unity is with ahlus sunnah and outside that is one of priorities. The prophet (pbuh) took help of Jews when needed. It doesn't mean it was unity whereby muslims validated the creed of Jews.

[Desert-Sheikh]

warea, on 06 March 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Uniting for defending a external threat is useless if the unity itself is a internal threat. What use is defending the external if there is internal threat and disintegration & distortion of islam taking place by uniting with bidah ? There is a line between differences which do not take ppl beyond ahlus sunnah and those differences which do take ppl beyond ahlus sunnah. Unity is with ahlus sunnah and outside that is one of priorities. The prophet (pbuh) took help of Jews when needed. It doesn't mean it was unity whereby muslims validated the creed of Jews.

Who are the Ahl al-Sunnah?

Can you please provide reference about Rasool Allah Sallallahu Alieh Wassalam taking help from Jews?

[Mudassar-Rana]

warea, on 06 March 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Uniting for defending a external threat is useless if the unity itself is a internal threat. What use is defending the external if there is internal threat and disintegration & distortion of islam taking place by uniting with bidah ? There is a line between differences which do not take ppl beyond ahlus sunnah and those differences which do take ppl beyond ahlus sunnah. Unity is with ahlus sunnah and outside that is one of priorities. The prophet (pbuh) took help of Jews when needed. It doesn't mean it was unity whereby muslims validated the creed of Jews.

Even if i agree - there is one big problem

The people of bidah is subjective. Because all parties like a scene out of a tarantino flick point a gun to each other. Now the salafi's accuse us as being people of bidah. The ulema's lets say were genuine and made informed decisions - there followers not knowing any better - go around shouting BIDDAH! We on the other hand consider them bidah! Again our ulema would have made the decision genuinely out of proper research - the ordinary person not knowing any different now considers salafi's as bidatti's.

The above is the present scenario.

My problem - is it universally acknowledged - let me know if i have got the wrong end of the stick. Allah says be not disunited and hold onto the rope etc. So allah asks muslims - as far as i am aware it doesnt mention any particular type - just muslims. So allah wants us to be UNITED. But allah would have also known that humans being humans would have their differences some perhaps even life and death matters - why would he asks us to unite with people who could be biddatti's? So either allah is asking us to unite with bidatti's or he didnt know the future. Now if he didnt know the future then he isnt allah and we might as well pack our bags and shut up shop! So let me take this liberty and say allah did know that humans would have their differences some genuine and others may not be genuine. And he still asks us to unite.

And our rasool s.a.w said differences are a mercy. Conditional upon the difference being genuinely held and based on text.

finally allah's rasool s.a.w last words were "my ummah". Now allah's rasool s.a.w has already told us that there would be 73 firqa - i.e 72 out of the fold of islam (i.e qadiani) and one on the correct path. In that correct path - it is a wide path - walk several groups all affirming that they are the right ones. Rasool s.a.w could have made it easier for us and just said my shia my sunni my brelvi my deobandi. Surely these words arent any bigger than my ummah. so why not?

My answer - we are feeding our own ego's and that of a few personalities with too many pockets sewn into their clothing. the basis of our unity is the shahadah and all muslims are prepared to give their lives for their rasool s.a.w - lets keep it to that. Otherwise dont cry when you are taken as pieces of meat and bombed in the name of liberty, democracry and freedom. You would have deserved it!

[sunniskeptic]

It is an interesting idea -- unite. Unite on what? We haven't been united since the Prophet honoured the next world with His Presence (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam).
Banu Hashim vs Banu Umayyah, Hazrat Ali vs Hazrat Muawiyyah, Jang e Jamal, Jang e Safeen, Ummayads vs Abbasids vs Ummayads of Spain, Fatimids vs Abbasids, Sunni vs Shia,
Mutazilites vs Asharites vs Hanbalis vs Maturidis vs Philosopfers vs Sufis vs...you get the message?

We won the Crusades because the armies of Saladin were better equipped and supplied to fight in the desert with better weapons. We had better supply lines. The Crusaders were more disunited
than us (and much smaller in number). Remember, for most of his life Saladin (rahmatullah alayhi) was fighting the Rafidis for power; then his uncles! He attacked the Crusaders not primarily
for the glory of Islam --though he got that--but because of the danger to the Ayyubid Kingdom it portended.
The proof is that after Rukn al Din Baybars put the final nail in the coffin of the Crusaders--quite a while later--there still was not Muslim unity. All the Ilkhan Khanates were fighting each other,
Timur was fighting everyone, then the Ottomans decided to fight. The Safavids fought the Ottomans. Meanwhile one Muslim dynasty in India was replacing an earlier one like marbles. 'Islamic' rule has been one dynasty ruling the masses until overthrown bloodily by another dynasty until....like a cycle until the outsiders (Westerners) became powerful enough to overthrow them all.( Yes they used the title of Caliph to give
legitimacy to their rule and fool the masses.)

We are still disunited. The only difference now is we are living in an age of instant communication globally and we are lightyears behind the West in technology and military technology, in economics,
in science, in medicine, in the Arts, in human development, in crime rates, in every possible indicator of human progress yet developed...so now we feel this disunity more acutely whereas in the past
someone in Jerusalem wouldn't have been aware for weeks, if not months, about what was going on in Damascus (300 km away)!
I missed out Arabs killing Blacks killing Persians killing Turks killing Arabs killing....

---

Even now, what unity? The Arabs united with the British to overthrow the Turks only a century ago! Just last night I had a look on Google for the list of countries which allow Pakistani passport holders free entry without a visa. Apart from a few tiny islands here and there, the list was very small. The only countries of note were Nepal and Sri Lanka. Egypt allows us to visit only if we are going to the resorts in the South.
not a SINGLE Muslim country except tiny Mauritius. And Iran for 3 DAYS only. Yet almost all these countries allow EU/UK/US/Australian/Japanese to come for 3 months without a visa! What happened to Muslim unity?
It is like the Easter Bunny: It never existed! (There is some visa free travel amongst Arabs in other Arab countries). You know why? Because in the 21st century, only fools and knaves care about fellow Muslims on the official level. We on here are simply naive and brainwashed. when Imam Mahdi alayhisalam comes maybe we will one day get this Unity but till then...care about your own country (for us this is the UK and Pakistan)
The early Islamic caliphate was almost exclusively an Arab caliphate which is why there were many many revolts against the unjustness against new converts to Islam. Ever heard of the so-called Slave Revolts known in Arab history as Mamluke revolts? Yeah. How come only an Arab can ever be a Caliph; let alone an Arab only someone from Quraysh? (according to Ahlus Sunnah)

There is more real Islam and human rights in a country like Sweden or the UK or Germany than has ever existed in any Islamic empire (excluding, perhaps, the first 30 years although we have very little first hand historical evidence for what life was like then for the average person: probably, 'nasty, brutish and short'.)

Musharraf was right. Pakistan first. If any of you have lived in other countries outside the UK and interacted with other people from Muslim countries you will learn that you are more likely to be treated like a human being by non-Muslims than by our so-called Muslim brethren (unless they are from India, Pakistan or Bangladesh). You know what? In the REAL world, and not in the ideological realm in which many of us on here
seem to exist, culture and language are much closer unifiers than religion. It was always thus (save for one amazing period in Madina but that was due to the remarkable and unique personality of Hazrat Muhammad al Mustafa alayhi salatu wa sallam. Sadly we never followed his teachings...) I really advise you to travel. I have been living away from home for over half my life in different countries and seriously this idea
of 'Muslim first' doesn't exist except, for short time during prayer time in a mosque. Even there, not all Muslims are created equal...

Sorry for breaking your dream but wake up and see reality.

.

[qadrimuslim]

Bravo SS - that's probably one of the best posts you have written!

I agree with 99% of it and historically most of what you say is spot on.

The 1% I disagree with you on is your conclusion on the negative forecast of whats to come. It is not necessary for our future to be as turbulent as our past. What if tomorrow a new Caliphate was established? Would you not support it? Of course you would! Even with the trouble and fasaad around us, we would support and build upon the efforts of the few.

The main problem we have is that even if a Sunni were to be declared Caliph, our own Sunni ulama would be the first to rebel and say he's not Sunni enough!

As mentioned above, if we could only get our own Ulama together first! Strengthen our own ranks and establish a grip on the Muslims around us first.

At the moment, Sunni Sufis are the laughing stock. Whatever we might think of wahabites and deobandis, the truth is that they are years ahead of us. Look at their Madrassas, see how active they are, even in politics you have Salafi political parties standing for elections in Arab countries! Even in Pakistan the wahabis are so much more active in politics than the humble Sunnis.

We really need to bash our heads together and make a change.. or spend the rest of our years fading into the background with our self righteous rhetoric falling on deaf ears.

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

The discussion was very interesting until IE stepped in, please ignore him and carry on do not deviate from the topic.

I really enjoyed SOTH's post, it was very real and the shocking truth of the Muslims today. BR MR you say unity is possible if we were to make basic our requirements for that unity, ie Kalima.

I would like to add that in order for any Caliphate or leadership one must build after destruction of Religious Dogma. All over the Muslim World the dominant collective priority should be unity with Muslim Brethren. Unfortunately this does not exist, in pockets and parts it does but generally as a feeling of trust between two Muslim nations does not exist. Even import and export between two Muslim nations is patchy-imagine the strength of our nations if only this aspect was good between Muslim countries.

So what we can the ordinary Muslims do since complete unity between Muslim nations will not happen in our lives, the only time it will happen is when the Mahdi arrives!

Atleast we can promote love and understanding, meet with non Sunni groups, preferably the young and work on how we can make our image stronger in the West. Do more for our failing communities despite our aqeedah differences. But ofcourse this is difficult too, every friday I'm sure plenty of people listen to Salafi and Shia bashing in the Khutbas!

[Mudassar-Rana]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 07 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

The discussion was very interesting until IE stepped in, please ignore him and carry on do not deviate from the topic.

I really enjoyed SOTH's post, it was very real and the shocking truth of the Muslims today. BR MR you say unity is possible if we were to make basic our requirements for that unity, ie Kalima.

I would like to add that in order for any Caliphate or leadership one must build after destruction of Religious Dogma. All over the Muslim World the dominant collective priority should be unity with Muslim Brethren. Unfortunately this does not exist, in pockets and parts it does but generally as a feeling of trust between two Muslim nations does not exist. Even import and export between two Muslim nations is patchy-imagine the strength of our nations if only this aspect was good between Muslim countries.

So what we can the ordinary Muslims do since complete unity between Muslim nations will not happen in our lives, the only time it will happen is when the Mahdi arrives!

Atleast we can promote love and understanding, meet with non Sunni groups, preferably the young and work on how we can make our image stronger in the West. Do more for our failing communities despite our aqeedah differences. But ofcourse this is difficult too, every friday I'm sure plenty of people listen to Salafi and Shia bashing in the Khutbas!

Sis ftr - in terms of unity i referred to political. ideological differences whether genuine or non genuine will always exist that is the nature of the human beast. Lets look at a microcosm. The MMA in Pakistan fought an election on one platform - the mma included shia, sunni, brelvi, deobandi's and salafi's. They united for one SELFISH purpose - to win an election. So all differences were overridden. For what? Power!

What does that tell you about the differences between us!!!! They certainly arent the life and death matters that are expounded from the mimbars all across pakistan every friday! For example do not marry from them, do not eat with them, they are kaafir, they are bidatti etc.

So why this duplicity? Why tell us that such and such a people arent muslim - and then make political alliances for the sake of power? Either the differences are totally non genuine or the differences can be over-ridden for a greater goal.

Yes muslims have differed and will always differ - and if the differences are from text and genuinely held without danger to each others lives they are a mercy and act as a dynamo to encourage further investigation and thought.

It is thought that leads us to progression not invention. Because without thought there is no invention. It is moral courage that leads us to intellectual courage and thus physical courage. Why do you think that Britain after rape, pillage and murder across the globe still enjoys the status amongst ordinary people? Why do you think that when illegal immigrants get to France - which is another bastion of secular freedoms and human rights people risk life and limb to cross the channel into the UK? It is because of the high moral ground whether rightly or wrongly that britain has on the world stage.

Our leadership of the world (and yes they were problems) was based on superior ikhlaq. We have lost that. Simple as. From our mimbars we tell all and sundry, those who want to listen and those who dont about the greatness of Umar bin Khattab as a leader - but we always forget that umar was chosen from amongst great people!! When someone teased syedna ali a.s that umar's r.a khilafat was prosperous and trouble free syedna ali a.s said yes umar had the likes of me behind him and i have the likes of you!!!

Learn Ikhlaq and the moral high ground from the seerah of rasool allah s.a.w in Makkah and learn ruling and justice from the seerah of rasool allah s.a.w in madina. Unfortunately we forget makkah and jump to madina - no way on God's earth will you get rulership without moral courage. That is not the way allah works. If it was Allah would never have made rasool allah s.a.w go through the trials and tribulations and allah would never have allowed imam hussein a.s and his family to go through what he did. Unfortunately there are no freebies.

[qadrimuslim]

I have just added this video to our library

it is of Shaykh Hamza talking in a moderate and tolerant manner

he makes his/our position clear as the majority opinion and mentions those in disagreement in an academic and respectful manner

.. while at the same time displaying the Spirit of Islam through the Love of Allah and his Rasool (SAWW)

[sunniskeptic]

Hamza always talks sense....our mullahs and their acolytes dont like him cos they see him as a threat...

---
you know we always talk about our superior ethics and I accept when Islam came it had far superior ethics ****for its
time***.

But human society moves on and ethics have also developed since the 7th century.
In Islam it is okay to keep slaves, to discriminate based on religion, it is allowed to forcibly have sex with female
prisoners of war [what your right hand possesses i.e. concubines] -- which is rape by another name--
young girls can be married off without their consent if they are virgins from the age of 9 by their father or grandfather as long
as the guy they marry is 'of equal status' [kufu]
gays can be executed, anyone convicted of adultery or fornication can be stoned to death...

all these things were common and normal back then but in today's world they are not acceptable. How many of you would
support any of the above?

[Fekay]

Slave_of_the_Two_Husayns, on 10 March 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Hamza always talks sense....our mullahs and their acolytes dont like him cos they see him as a threat...

---
you know we always talk about our superior ethics and I accept when Islam came it had far superior ethics ****for its
time***.

But human society moves on and ethics have also developed since the 7th century.
In Islam it is okay to keep slaves, to discriminate based on religion, it is allowed to forcibly have sex with female
prisoners of war [what your right hand possesses i.e. concubines] -- which is rape by another name--
young girls can be married off without their consent if they are virgins from the age of 9 by their father or grandfather as long
as the guy they marry is 'of equal status' [kufu]
gays can be executed, anyone convicted of adultery or fornication can be stoned to death...

all these things were common and normal back then but in today's world they are not acceptable. How many of you would
support any of the above?

So where does that leave Islam in your point of view?

[sunniskeptic]

Oh I still believe in Islam and its eternal truth of La ilaha il Allah (Sayyidina) Muhammad Rasul Allah but I think some of the external laws can be rethought for today's age; for example, I think in principle Islam would prefer ending of slavery
therefore it wouldn't be unislamic to ban slavery in all islamic lands even if we had a caliphate again; ditto, i don't think it is practical or feasible in this day and age to marry girls off at 9 given we live
in an age where people are much more educated than in those times...etc. I believe Islam came to set people free in both worlds.

you haven't answered my last question: do you support those things I listed sanctioned traditionally by Islam in past times?

[qalam]

qadrimuslim, on 10 March 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I have just added this video to our library

it is of Shaykh Hamza talking in a moderate and tolerant manner

he makes his/our position clear as the majority opinion and mentions those in disagreement in an academic and respectful manner

.. while at the same time displaying the Spirit of Islam through the Love of Allah and his Rasool (SAWW)

salam


emotional speech. dunno if he was serious or acting towards the end. has anyone met him in real life.


;(
dr aq

[qadrimuslim]

It's not your job to judge somebody's sincerity - especially an established and well respected scholar of Islam