[Mudassar-Rana]

Its a topic that may have been discussed previously and if so the mods are welcomed to remove. This isnt an attempt at courting controvery and id like it to remain civilised and the discussion purely from a view point of clarification with good evidences.


The reasons for these questions and i hinted at this in the other thread vis a vis the shah saab video.

When we look around in recent history - Enemies of islam both external and internal have used descendancy from rasool allah s.a.w for their own designs whether they be political or selfish.

For example in the middle east the british used the sharif family to rebel against the ottomans. In india many Syeds were patronised by the british rulers in order to have if you like local agents. This continues till date where many still use this privellidged position in order to enforce something more akin to the ancient days of bondsmanship. We delve further and much of the ruling elite are now too from these families ruling Pakistan like a persoanl fiefdom.

From an islamic i.e based on text is there evidence that descendancy from rasool e kareem s.a.w means that the person will be free from sin? And Should we expect them to be?

Further when we pray durood and we bless the children of rasool allah s.a.w is that all inclusive i.e not from just the past but the present too? For example would my durood sharif also include prime minister yousuf raza gillani etc?

Thirdly the sheer number of people in the sub continent claiming descendancy has sometimes led people to say its nigh on impossible? Can someone explain how does lineage from rasool allah s.a.w come. i.e we know its from syeda Zahraa a.s but from then onwards.

And as Syedna Ali married others and had more children are they or can they be included? I've ofen heard people say "we are directly descended from syedna zain ul abideen - is that what it means to be a truly of the lineage of rasool allah s.a.w? Other times you hear pir sahibaan saying that we are hasni syeds, or hussaini syeds or sometimes even both - what do these mean?

Finally as br ds hinted bearing in mind the oft quoted and little practised final khutbah of rasool e kareem s.a.w stipulates about no man being above any other except in taqwa, in light of this why do we still persist in division of society based on caste? My elders have likened it to the different breeds of horses - is it right that humans are compared to lions and horses?

[sunniskeptic]

Some excellent questions brother MR. Here is another one I'd like to add: in terms of genetics each individual is a combination of 50% of genes from his father and 50 % from his mother. (It's not actually exactly a 50-50 split but let's ignore the tiny difference for now.) This means that with each generation your genetic relationship to the previous generation is halved. We have people who claim direct descent from Huzoor Paak sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam but say, for example, that He is my 40th ancestor. Even if we assumed (which often is not the case) that both parents from each previous generation were pure sayyids, it still would only mean that, at most you would have 1/2^40 (1 divided by 2 to the power of 40!) portion of the same genetic pool as Huzoor Paak sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam so how can people say they are related? I know that in olden times people didn't know about genetics and assumed that the blood of the father carries the lineage.

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Some very good questions indeed. Br Mr, being a Syed holds no special privilege and immunity from Allah's wrath this is often one of the most misunderstood points attached to Syeds in general. Even Syeds do not believe this is the case or else they would give up trying to please God. When someone says they are descendents of RasoolAllah this means from Seyyeda Fatema SA, she married Imam Ali and the prophets lineage started from a Woman. There is a hadith in which the Prophet states this. Hazrat Ali had other children not from Seyyeda Fatema but they are not Syeds since their lineage does not go back to RasoolAllah. If someone says they are from the family of Zayn ul Abidin this means essentially they are Hussaini Syeds since his father was Imam Hussain. Anyone from the line of the Imams is Hussaini except when they descend from Imam Hassan. Except one son of Imam Hussain Zayn ul Abidin they were all Martyred in Karbala, and except one I believe all of Imam Hassans sons were martyred in Karbala too. Allah has saved their lineage and for continuation had allowed Imam Zayn ul Abidin to live on, he was too ill to fight in the battle of Karbala.

Narrated by Umm Salama the wife of RasoolAllah 'We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi."

So Imam Mahdi wil be from Progeny of RasoolAllah and he refers to him as his family, we Sunnies believe he is yet to be born and come to this Earth. So although genetically he is many hundreds of years from RasoolAllah but he calls him a man from my family.

The prophet was known for his lineage and because he was given the best traits in all things this included his lineage which has been mentioned in hadith. He was a descendent of Hazrat Ibrahim.

Lastly though only Taqwa honours people in the sight of Allah, good people whoever they are are most loved by God. This is clearly presented in the Quran. Allah puts significance on piety as a means of elevation.

[Qadri-Jilani]

A couple of quick points:

Syeds which the Holy Prophet peace be upon him described as his lineage are the descendants of Sayyida Fatima Zahra (peace be upon her), so they can be either Hasani or Husayni but no other. The other children of Sayyiduna Ali that are not from the progeny of Sayyida Fatima are not Syeds (but Alawis)-- the lineage must go back to the the Beloved Messenger (peace be upon him and his family), that's why they are his (peace be upon him) progeny. Before looking at the textual commands about respecting the noble lineage, the rationale is that every nisbat and association of the beloved Prophet is honoured and respected and what greater nisbat can there be than his own pure blood? Of course none are equal to the purified four from the panj tan paak or any of the earlier Imams of Ahl-ul-Bayt.

Yes there are some very bad examples like the man being discussed in the other thread and others who have sold the honour of their lineage and that is something we have to come to an understanding about, especially when it's not simply a matter of a man's private affairs but when such people disturb and corrupt the public and social order. Two things are for sure: The lineage of these people must not be disrespected and secondly the Ulama say that islah, rectifying and correcting a syed's character is jaiz if not necessary (adherence to the Shari'a is necessary for all without exception and no one has the right to flout it). The saddest part for me is how these individuals give a bad name to the noble lineage and results in questions like this inevitably being asked.

Do remember that proportionally the majority of awliya of the ummah and those that have sacrificed their lives for the deen have been from the noble family of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) said: Allah will benefit His deen at the end of every century with a man from my Ahl-ul-Bayt, who will demonstrate their Din for them." (al-Subki comments in his Tabaqat that this is authentically proven from Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal).

As for the British then we have the recent example of Pir Pagara Sahib passing away, whose father was executed by the British for fighting against the colonisers. So while you mention those examples it's essential to mention the great portion who were involved in preserving and reviving the Deen, and guiding the people to Islam.

[Mudassar-Rana]

good points sis ftr. I wasnt sure of how the lineage worked from say imam hassan and hussein. In essence ur point being that a syed is s/he who decends from both of them. Does this exclude for example syeda Zainab a.s? And if so why - is that a decision that is subjective or cast iron?

Second question - related to one of the points you made - that both the imams had 1 son surviving son - do you then think it is possible that many claim lineage as a lie or the sheer numbers of claimants across the middle east and subcontinent are about right.


My main pointers were - when in durood sharif we ask allah to bless to children of the prophet - is that limited? Or not. - its important to know because it has ramifications of what we can or cannot say to say prime minister gillani etc i.e one minute we are asking allah to bless the likes of pm gillani or musharraf and the next we could be on the streets cursing them!

Last point was regarding the caste system that some of us dishonestly lay at the door of hinduism but probably carry with the same verve - is it islamically correct to divide ourselves like this - as if sectarianism wasnt enough.


Br QJ - to be honest you have done the classic politician answer! " i will answer the question but first let me answer my own question"!!! Too many late thursday nights watching question time!


No doubts that the greatest sacrifice has been from the family of the prophet and woe to he who denies this, for me to even say their names is an honour of which i am not worthy.

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Mudassar-Rana, on 06 March 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

good points sis ftr. I wasnt sure of how the lineage worked from say imam hassan and hussein. In essence ur point being that a syed is s/he who decends from both of them. Does this exclude for example syeda Zainab a.s? And if so why - is that a decision that is subjective or cast iron?

Second question - related to one of the points you made - that both the imams had 1 son surviving son - do you then think it is possible that many claim lineage as a lie or the sheer numbers of claimants across the middle east and subcontinent are about right.


My main pointers were - when in durood sharif we ask allah to bless to children of the prophet - is that limited? Or not. - its important to know because it has ramifications of what we can or cannot say to say prime minister gillani etc i.e one minute we are asking allah to bless the likes of pm gillani or musharraf and the next we could be on the streets cursing them!

Last point was regarding the caste system that some of us dishonestly lay at the door of hinduism but probably carry with the same verve - is it islamically correct to divide ourselves like this - as if sectarianism wasnt enough.


Br QJ - to be honest you have done the classic politician answer! " i will answer the question but first let me answer my own question"!!! Too many late thursday nights watching question time!


No doubts that the greatest sacrifice has been from the family of the prophet and woe to he who denies this, for me to even say their names is an honour of which i am not worthy.

The lineage comes from the father, in every other case other than Mohammad pbuh. His daughter must therefore be no oridnary woman to carry the lineage of her father. There is no other example of this, therefore Seyyeda Zainab is not included in this.

It is very possible that there are many unauthentic Seyyeds in the Asian Subcontinent due to the higher importance attached to them due to the caste system. Seyyeds are not more important, the same rules of Shariah apply to them and same value as any other human also. Infact it is a big sin to change your father, as the Prophet has said. Essentially those pretending to be are doing this very thing.

I do not think, although I'm not sure that the salam in Namaz applies to the progeny of RasoolAllah and is not limited to just his immediate family. But Allah is very generous if he can elevate status of people above all nations of those who kept his company, ie Sahaba then what is there to stop this generosity of Allah when it comes to the family line of the Prophet.

There is a hadith of RasoolAllah in which he states that eventually all other family lines will perish except my line. I'm sorry I don't have the reference for this but will post if I find it.

The one who believes in a Just God will believe that Allah will never deal with him unjustly, mercifully yes but never unjustly. Allah is more than enough for a Seyyed and non Seyyed!!

This post has been edited by Fatema-the-resplendent: 06 March 2012 - 06:55 PM

[sunniskeptic]

Surely being a sayyid means having your lineage goes back to the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam; what about the children of the other daughters of the Prophet then--why are they not called sayyids? Because
two of the blessed daughters were married to Hazrat Dhul Nurayn Uthman ibn al Affan namely Hazrat Ruqayyah and Hazrat Umm Kulthum radhi Allaha anham (?) So why aren't their children considered
sayyids too since they are also directly related to the Prophet?

(Or did they not have children?)

This is a serious question.