[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Mudassar-Rana, on 20 February 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Im sure you have heard of the opinion that everything is haram unless evidence exists for it being halal!!

Infact I think Islam operates on everything is Halal unless specifically made Haram. For example God tells us what relations we can NOT marry in the Quran making everyone else acceptable. I think the same is the case with which Animals we can NOT eat thus making all others Halal. Islam is kinder than that.

This post has been edited by Fatema-the-resplendent: 20 February 2012 - 10:00 PM

[Know-the-Ledge]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 20 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Infact I think Islam operates on everything is Halal unless specifically made Haram. For example God tells us what relations we can NOT marry in the Quran making everyone else acceptable. I think the same is the case with which Animals we can NOT eat thus making all others Halal. Islam is kinder than that.

Bro MR was being sarcastic, it's the najidoon who operate on the inversed formula, hence the schism between the sunnis and the najidoon.

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Know-The-Ledge, on 20 February 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Bro MR was being sarcastic, it's the najidoon who operate on the inversed formula, hence the schism between the sunnis and the najidoon.

Oh I see, obviously Sarcasm eludes me

[Mudassar-Rana]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 20 February 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Oh I see, obviously Sarcasm eludes me

Sis thee disappoint me thoroughly!

Though it is the wahabi's that operate on the haram first ask questions later it is becoming a common trait of most ill educated extremists.

EVERYTHING IS ALLOWED ... until proven haram. If that isnt liberty then we deserve the mental shackles we impose on ourselves.

If we havent got over the hurdle of whether television is haram or not then how do you expect us to build factories to produce them? Ipad - haram, ipod haram, laptop haram, netbook haram, iphone haram, picture haram. UK passport - erm halal, interest based mortgage halal, Social Security defraudulently obtained halal, false personal injury claim halal, bringing your sister over as your wife from pakistan halal, bribing namazi's 20 quid for a vote so you become the mosque chairperson halal, forcing ur child to marry your brothers son halal.

I hope we c what motivates our society and our sincerity has led us to sewer of history that we find ourselves in. No moral courage, no intellectual courage and thus no physical courage. As the Daily Telegraph editorial said on the eve of the first gulf war - muslims were ONCE AN ENEMY WORTH RESPECTING.

[piara-madinah]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 20 February 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Photographs and TV pictures are not made from someones hand as the Hadith implies but a projection of what already exists. Why would one be asked to breathe life into their own selves when we are already alive? The point is this hadith refers to drawing something especially humans; when out of nothing comes something.

I don't have any pictures in my house of people or any living thing simply because it can invalidate prayer and keep angels away. I have never really liked dolls but would not say one is forbidden to have them since the keeper is not the maker.

What if someone got dolls the angels will stay ?

[Mudassar-Rana]

piara-madinah, on 20 February 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

What if someone got dolls the angels will stay ?

Andhay ki ap miss world se shaadi karwa de aur unpar ke haath mein hadith ki kitaab de de - dono barabar hai. Andha husn ki tareef nahi kar sakta aur unpar hadith ka mutayla kar ke sahi faisla kabhi nahi kar sakta - sirf no ball par out ho sakta hai. No ball is liye ke allah hamay maaf kar deta hai aur baar baar mauqa farahim karta hai.

[Luhif]

I would have to say that no one has been able to answer the OP's first question which was asking for evidence to support permissibility for pictures and videos.We are beating around bushes when we say that some Ulama have allowed it because that is those ulama's opinion and is not an evidence from authentic sources.Ulama'a are human and thus fallible.OP has clarified the position about official documents where an ordinary person has to comply with it so saying that why do those ulama who hold the position that Pictures are haram, come to UK or otherwise is again not answering the actual question but arguing with very weak argument which is to blame ulama.Also, where do we derive or which scholar has mentioned specifically that everything is halal until proven otherwise? Is eating horse halal? what about cat? dog? I can give a long list but you get the idea what I mean.So please provide reference of this that everything is halal until proven otherwise.

I would like to say that rightly guided scholars have allowed pictures/videos and rightly guided scholars have disallowed it.If your Shaykh has allowed it then follow your Shaykh and if your Shaykh has disallowed it then stay away from it and indeed its better to call people to more cautious position.

[Mudassar-Rana]

I would like to say that rightly guided scholars have allowed pictures/videos and rightly guided scholars have disallowed it.If your Shaykh has allowed it then follow your Shaykh and if your Shaykh has disallowed it then stay away from it and indeed its better to call people to more cautious position.[/font][/size][/color]
[/quote]

I beg to differ bro - sis ftr - said pretty much at the outset that photo's and thus television (by extension of the technology) are not animate subjects merely reflections and therefore do not fit the criteria that the OP outlined. Henceforth a topic that has been discussed numerous times and is only utilised at a bit of bashing is useless.

As you rightly state ulema are fallible and therefore prone to error. In terms of an islamic edict or fatwa on the issue then it can only be done by mujtahid who is the only person allowed to formulate an opinion not just based on the shariah text but also with a clear understanding of what the technology is.

For us as mere muqallids to pull a hadith out and say this is the right/wrong opinion is firstly not permitted and secondly nonesensical and gives rise to the exact charges that are rightly placed at the door step of wahabbis - namely literalism.


As far as the principle of everything in origin being haram unless evidence is brought forward for its forbiddence - well that is a general and well known principle - it reiterates that islam came as umar bin khattab r.a to free from slavery and bondage to man to the salvery and bondage of allah. I say this precisely of what we see in our day to day lives - where haraam is the most oft used word in our discourse and largely it is to put people down and people speaking with little knowledge. I have heard people say oh "YARMI" is halaal, or oh "YARMI" is haraam etc - now my reply to them is that you do not even know the proper word i.e "gyaarvi" and you are able to decide on whether its halal or not!! Another one is "we are hanafi" and such and such isnt. When asked was this gentleman hanafi called erm "hanafi?" "Abu Hanifa?" - hardly anybody knows his name!

Basically without digressing further we are too quick too shoot from the hip without really having knowledge, a bit like a school kid wanting to go 12 rounds with Mohammad Ali in his heyday!

[Sunni786Soldier]

JoeDacky, on 20 February 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Salaam,

Why the defeatist attitude..? I am not saying you must stay away from bank notes and passports...you are saying we should stay away from photos..and remember there are pictures (hand drawn, not captured) on bank notes..OK accept your wages in bank notes as you have earned them..fair enough..pay your food bills in bank notes as other means may not be acceptable...But why accept nazaranas? Is accepting a piece of paper symbolising idolatry a MUST? No of course not. Are we able to "exist in todays" society without nazaranas? Yes of course we are. So my dear brother, what I am asking you, do these same fatawa firers speak against accepting nazaranas based on the fact that they contain pictures? No of course not. You and I both know it. There should be consistency across the spectrum. If a man truly believes his Prophet (saaw) is against the use of pictures, then he should show it upon himself first in a fully fledged manner and not, as Qalam mentions above, pic and mix.

The munafiqeen at the time of the Messenger (saaw), used to hide thier idols on their person whilst standing in prayer in jamaat. Dont the fatwa issuing authority do the same, ie have their bank notes in the wallets or inside their kameez etc? If pictures are a representation of idolatry, then why do we follow the sunnah of idolaters by concealing our idols in our pockets and wallets during salah?

True there are debit cards and bank accounts - electronic transactions, valid point.

I guess the concept I was getting at above is perhaps down to the level of Taqwa you wish to achieve. I think, the hadith speak for themselves. Mashallah, many people have created own fatwas on here so I will let people decide for themselves.

Br YanabiChemist - seriously, grow up. I never insulted any scholars if there is a stupid person around here its you and the likes of you. All you ever want to do is create fitna and come guns blazing.

[Sunni786Soldier]

Luhif, on 21 February 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

I would have to say that no one has been able to answer the OP's first question which was asking for evidence to support permissibility for pictures and videos.

Jazakallah. Sadly, people have come guns blazing making accusations etc.

Disappointing.

[Luhif]

@ Bro Rana

Those Scholars who have said photo/videos are disallowed have given their proofs and reasons.When you say tv is just a reflection of the image which is the argument for many scholars who have allowed it saying its just like a mirror but if you stand in front of mirror, your image is reflected and if you go away from it, your image goes too which is not same for videos as you can still see images of a person who has passed away many years ago thus Scholars have differed about this point.

I do not have knowledge that is why I would not speak about its permissibility or not permissibility.My point was if rightly guided scholars have allowed it or disallowed it and they are those who have studied several years and we have not, then we cannot argue about it.I agree with you on that brother.

I would like to see evidence about everything is halal until proven otherwise.It may be very generally known but I came to know about this apparent 'fact' from this website so I would not agree until I see the evidence or even a discussion/speech from a well known scholar who has mentioned this.Why is it then we cannot eat dog? The fact that people use these words to label another muslim does not negate the fact that we have to abide by rules of Islam and thus we need evidence from our tradition to derive conclusion on such questions.

About the OP's question, I still say follow your own Shaykh.

[Know-the-Ledge]

Sunni786Soldier, on 21 February 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Jazakallah. Sadly, people have come guns blazing making accusations etc.

Disappointing.

Can you answer my questions? I have not blazed any guns. Can you also clarify your level of islamic education.

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Those Scholars who have said photo/videos are disallowed have given their proofs and reasons.When you say tv is just a reflection of the image which is the argument for many scholars who have allowed it saying its just like a mirror but if you stand in front of mirror, your image is reflected and if you go away from it, your image goes too which is not same for videos as you can still see images of a person who has passed away many years ago thus Scholars have differed about this point. (Luhif)

How will we propogate Islam and have been doing through this very medium, so the question the Shaykhs need to consider is how much of a necessity this has become in order to share knowledge, promote Islam and promulgate technology. Why is it that we Muslims will always look for ways to invalidate and make haram a thing which will help us progress? This reminds me of how the very same arguments are used to stop Girls from studying not realising that how the offspring will benefit hugely from an educated Mother thus progressing our society's.

I've had enough of nonsensical fatwas which fail to take into consideration necessity and use.

And Sunni soldier, why you have not answered any of my questions either?

[Mudassar-Rana]

Luhif, on 21 February 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

@ Bro Rana

Those Scholars who have said photo/videos are disallowed have given their proofs and reasons.When you say tv is just a reflection of the image which is the argument for many scholars who have allowed it saying its just like a mirror but if you stand in front of mirror, your image is reflected and if you go away from it, your image goes too which is not same for videos as you can still see images of a person who has passed away many years ago thus Scholars have differed about this point.

I do not have knowledge that is why I would not speak about its permissibility or not permissibility.My point was if rightly guided scholars have allowed it or disallowed it and they are those who have studied several years and we have not, then we cannot argue about it.I agree with you on that brother.

I would like to see evidence about everything is halal until proven otherwise.It may be very generally known but I came to know about this apparent 'fact' from this website so I would not agree until I see the evidence or even a discussion/speech from a well known scholar who has mentioned this.Why is it then we cannot eat dog? The fact that people use these words to label another muslim does not negate the fact that we have to abide by rules of Islam and thus we need evidence from our tradition to derive conclusion on such questions.

About the OP's question, I still say follow your own Shaykh.

Br Luhif I dont know which scholars you are thinking of, and i use the word scholar lightly. Secondly did they fully understood what photography was? Because during the 18th century the ottoman scholars banned industrialisation saying machinery was the tools of satan! Do you see how dangerous this is? So whilst Britain was undergoing the industrial revolution the ottomans were regressing.

Bro Luhif, have you come across the principle innocent till proven guilty? This underpins not only western judicial system but was also one of the core principles of islamic justice. Its also common sense, even if someone has committed a murder but to ensure that no innocent party ever gets punished then it has to be proven. Similarly something maybe haram, but in certain circumstances it maybe permitted. For example lying is haram usually. However if as a soldier you are caught by the enemy do you think its pardonable that you give away the position of your comrades simply because you thought it was haram to lie?!!! Another is pork or horse meat or alcohol. In certain circumstances it maybe halal. Would you let someone die because a life saving medicine contained alcohol?

I dont know what the hadith that the op mentioned referred to. I dont even wish to go into it - i am not qualified to make a carte blanche decision. What i decry is the hypocrisy. As mentioned previously - by others also. Above i have highlighted to you instances all life threatening where haram becomes halal. However is having a UK passport a life saving necessity? Is having a passport at all a necessity? Would you then ban the modern mobile phone? the latop? the Computer, the netbook, the tablet? Can you imagine a society where all this is banned simply because someone couldnt explain a reflection? However if we are brave enough i would like to see the ulema take the hit first. Let them empty their bank balances with all the pictures on them. Let them hand in their passports or UK/US visa's. Let them stop their lucrative tv appearances. Im not bothered about banning anything - what gets me is the hypocrisy. I recall as a child in the masjid one of the kids getting berated for watching bollywood flicks - and guess what the same maulvi was in the video shop afterwards picking up yes you guessed it a video film!