[Brother_MGS]

Zolo, on 24 January 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

He can do all you said, but why should he do it eternally? Does that sound like a something a just God would do. Punish someone infinitely for a finite number of sins?

Theres a route that a sinner can take to escape punishment which is called asking for forgiveness. If God has given mankind enough time in life after commiting each sin to ask for forgiveness, why shouldnt they utilise it?. For an Athiest there is no concern with God as to them God doesnt exist. But to a believer in God and a person who understands the attributes and the powers of God, why shouldn't they seek forgiveness with sencerity? God is above all creation as you have pointed out aswel, how do we know wether that plead for forgiveness has been accepted or rejected by God? If God is specifically asking his creation to seek forgiveness then isnt it obvious that he will forgive and that persons slate can be erased?

[Zolo]

The-Mughal-Sister, on 24 January 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

It seems like you're all questions and no answers.

How about you tell us the answer, tell us about deism.

Is that the light we are searching for?

Enlighten me.

My questions are used to make you think about Islams validity.

I dont pretend to have all the answers like Islam does. God is bigger than all of us.

My statement about a created masterpiece explains why I believe in a Creator. This is the essence of Deism. The complexity of the universe convinces me of a deity. However the absurdities of the hadith and Quran convinces me that it is not from a deity.

[Zolo]

Brother_MGS, on 24 January 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Theres a route that a sinner can take to escape punishment which is called asking for forgiveness. If God has given mankind enough time in life after commiting each sin to ask for forgiveness, why shouldnt they utilise it?. For an Athiest there is no concern with God as to them God doesnt exist. But to a believer in God and a person who understands the attributes and the powers of God, why shouldn't they seek forgiveness with sencerity? God is above all creation as you have pointed out aswel, how do we know wether that plead for forgiveness has been accepted or rejected by God? If God is specifically asking his creation to seek forgiveness then isnt it obvious that he will forgive and that persons slate can be erased?

I can ask for forgiveness and just try my best and live my life to the best of my ability. Let God judge me when I die. Why is that not good enough? Why do I have to be Muslim?

[Brother_MGS]

Zolo, on 24 January 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

I agree with you again. But God is so complex how can we all agree upon anything? Just look at all the religions. They all think they are right.

You may be right there could be a hell, but an eternal hell makes no sense to me.

Im guessing the website you posted this article from has been used by yourself to find out information about Islam. I can tell you it is very poorly put together for starters. It is a very biased website, with fundamental flaws and fabrications on it.

Zolo, Muslim scholars who have spent years of education trying to master Quranic Arabic with all the syntax etc.have openly admitted to not fully mastering the understanding of the Quran. How can NON Muslim scholars that have probably used translations claim to understand it. There are many opinions on the meaning of the Quran that exist in Islam, but they aren't put together by wishful thinking and an anti Islamic vibe as they have been on that website.

Islam is a religion that gives humans a code for life. Even recommendations on the most healthy foods to eat, the best positions to sleep in that won't effect your body. It is a complete guide on how to live life.

[Brother_MGS]

Zolo, on 24 January 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

I can ask for forgiveness and just try my best and live my life to the best of my ability. Let God judge me when I die. Why is that not good enough? Why do I have to be Muslim?

Thats the thing you don't have to be Muslim. Has anybody forced Islam down your throat?
Islam tells its believers with ample reason why God wants his creation to behave in certian ways and pray etc. It isn't a religion that says Worship God or go hell, theres alot more reason and benefits given to why we should pray etc. A link is built between God and his creation, Islam tells its followers the best way to strengthen that link and please the Almighty. Im sure you do things in your life to try and please God? or after a good deed it crosses your mind that your Lord may be happy with what you have just done?

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Hate consumes all goodness out of a person who is left bereft of kindness, mercy and patience.

If you are a Deist or just an 'apostate' frustrated hugely by your rapturous misunderstanding of Islam through violence and misfortune; then I will say that better to come here and ask Muslims who have had a positive understanding of Islam.

Maybe we can help you reconcile some of your negative feelings for Islam?

The reason I asked you about your Deism, is this you say God is above Religion yet you believe in structure otherwise how would you decide for definite what is good and you hope I think, unlike Deists to want interference/intervention from God in your life.

And your hate for Islam is like hate for a brother, it is clear you are connected somewhat to this faith and your subconcious mind is betraying you over it.

[Zolo]

But how do I believe in a religion that says to kill apostates? That says my prayer is not valid or accepted for so many strange reasons. Isn't the important thing that i am praying?

How can i rationalize the concept of Offensive Jihad? The hadith gives me far more troubles than Quran. I admit there are some beautiful parts of the Quran. But reading hadiths about having sex with captured slave girls, satan urinating in your ear, women being the majority inhabitants of hell, black dogs being devils, satan hiding in your nose at night! It just seems so far fetched.

[Brother_MGS]

Zolo, on 25 January 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

But how do I believe in a religion that says to kill apostates? That says my prayer is not valid or accepted for so many strange reasons. Isn't the important thing that i am praying?

How can i rationalize the concept of Offensive Jihad? The hadith gives me far more troubles than Quran. I admit there are some beautiful parts of the Quran. But reading hadiths about having sex with captured slave girls, satan urinating in your ear, women being the majority inhabitants of hell, black dogs being devils, satan hiding in your nose at night! It just seems so far fetched.

you are making very alarming remarks and posing questions with alot of fabrication in them? Could you please provide proof to your somewhat wild claims?

On top of that you have ducked and weaved many of the questions pointed at yourself. It just seems that your after justification for the wild claims you have put across. These claims have clearly been found on anti Islam websites and texts.

[Brother_MGS]

Zolo, on 25 January 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

But how do I believe in a religion that says to kill apostates? That says my prayer is not valid or accepted for so many strange reasons. Isn't the important thing that i am praying?

How can i rationalize the concept of Offensive Jihad? The hadith gives me far more troubles than Quran. I admit there are some beautiful parts of the Quran. But reading hadiths about having sex with captured slave girls, satan urinating in your ear, women being the majority inhabitants of hell, black dogs being devils, satan hiding in your nose at night! It just seems so far fetched.

What is Jihad?

[Zolo]

Brother_MGS, on 25 January 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

What is Jihad?

Either you are a new muslim or very deceptive. You don't know about offensive Jihad? You have not heard of the hadiths I mention? Have you read sahih Bukhari?

[Zolo]

http://www.sahih-buk...ukhari_8_82.php How about that first hadith VOL 8 Book 52 #794.

That is sahih Bukhari- Does that punishment doled out by Muhammad seem right to you?

[JoeDacky]

Zolo, on 25 January 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

satan urinating in your ear, It just seems so far fetched.

When a person does not pray, they become weaker spiritually, thus more prone to whisperings of satan. They become less protected from sin and satan eggs them on by whispering evil in to the persons ears. This is what I take to mean satan weeing in your ears. To fill a persons ears with filth. These days we might say so and so chatted s**t in such an such persons ears. It doesnt mean the person literally relieved themselves with you on your side.

The ancient Arabs of Hijaz were surrounded by desert sand and not much else. On one side was the Persian empire on the other side were the Romans. As is normally the case with empires, they like to invade their neighbours, increasing their territory, plundering resources from the invaded lands and pushing their culture on to the subdued. This however was not the case with the Persians or Romans. They felt not to invade the Arabs because there were no resources to plunder and sand was useless as a resource! Therefore, not having been invaded for centuries, there was no mixing of cultures and language. Meaning no borrowed words from other languages. So over years, the Arabic language became very rich indeed. Also, there wasnt much to see in the desert. No huge rivers, vast lakes, greenery, seas, different types of wild animal, jungles etc. Therefore the expressive minds of the Arabs became developed like no other nation and their language was at its peak. Poetry was the order of the day, just like technology is the big hype nowadays. God revealed to His Messenger (saaw) His divine command in this eloquent language. Its a must to understand language before judging a culture or and idea which is expressed in that language.

[Zolo]

http://www.sahih-buk...ukhari_1_04.php VOL 1 Book 4 #215- This one talks about punishment of the grave for soiling yourself.

[Zolo]

http://www.sahih-buk...es/results.php5 LOOK AT VOL 2 BOOK 18 #161-this sahih hadith talks about the majority of hell being women because they were ungrateful to their husbands.

[Zolo]

Zolo, on 25 January 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

http://www.sahih-buk...ukhari_8_82.php How about that first hadith VOL 8 Book 52 #794.

That is sahih Bukhari- Does that punishment doled out by Muhammad seem right to you?

Again does this reaction seem extreme to you?

[Mudassar-Rana]

Zolo, on 25 January 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

Again does this reaction seem extreme to you?

From my perspective there is one extreme here - and thats yourself.

You have questions - yet you have made all the judgements already - so do you have questions or are you here just to make points?

The truth seeker spends a life time searching for answers but here it seems you have made all your conclusions with cut and paste jobs.

Ahadith on its own are worthless it is ahadith with the quran that jurists who have spent lifetimes studying the arabic language, the quran, the ahadith, the personalities to then deduce judgements.

You have very easily said i believe in a creator indicating yourself you to be impartial and a genuine seeker of truth. but all you reproduce is a rehash of orientalist concoctions.

If you are sincere in your questions then seek a master in islamic jursiprudence - the answers you will receive will be commensurate with the sincerity in which you seek them.

[Zolo]

Mudassar-Rana, on 25 January 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

From my perspective there is one extreme here - and thats yourself.

You have questions - yet you have made all the judgements already - so do you have questions or are you here just to make points?

The truth seeker spends a life time searching for answers but here it seems you have made all your conclusions with cut and paste jobs.

Ahadith on its own are worthless it is ahadith with the quran that jurists who have spent lifetimes studying the arabic language, the quran, the ahadith, the personalities to then deduce judgements.

You have very easily said i believe in a creator indicating yourself you to be impartial and a genuine seeker of truth. but all you reproduce is a rehash of orientalist concoctions.

If you are sincere in your questions then seek a master in islamic jursiprudence - the answers you will receive will be commensurate with the sincerity in which you seek them.

So I guess you don't think Muhammad was extreme in this instance but I am extreme for questioning it. I see.

I am asking an honest question are you afraid to give your opinion? This is a valid Sahih hadith. Do you need to be a learned Imam to understand it? Do you need to be a learned Imam to understand the quran as well? I thought the quran was supposedly clear?

Kill the apostates-is that clear or do you need an imam to explain that as well?

Do you agree that apostates should be killed? CAN YOU TELL ME HONESTLY WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? If you say they should not you may be called a kaffir so watch it. IF you admit that they should be killed, you are basically saying that I should be killed. SO NOW DO YOU SEE MY POINT?

I DARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TO APOSTATES OF ISLAM?

[Zolo]

http://theonlyquran....ari/?chapter=84

Look at #57- A sahih Bukhari hadith which states Muhammad said "whoever changes his religion Kill him". Does anyone want to disagree with Muhammad on this? Or do you all agree with him?

either way I prove my point. If you disagree you are westernizing and modernizing true Sahih teachings and some would call you kaffirun. If you go along with this teaching you prove the barbarism I am calling into question.

Most of you have not answered or refuted any of the sahih hadiths or my questions. Please do. If you truly have answers to explain these troubling hadiths and passages I have posted I would be happy to reconsider my position.

My whole family has turned their back on me, people have threatened me with death, I had to leave my homeland all because I don't want to be muslim. A shining example of your tolerant peaceful religion, don't you think? so maybe they and all their mullahs have it wrong!

[Mudassar-Rana]

i asked a simple question - are you here to make points or ask questions?

Firstly you dont afford us a little bit of respect by outlining ur plight.

I could register myself here tomorrow under another name and say the ame things as u and who would know any different?

So you believe God exists. but as of yet dont believe that he has sent communication to his creation? and u have doubts over islam to such an extent that you cast the aspersion that 1 billion people follow a barbaric religion and are blind to its barbarism. So this creator only created you who was sincere and the rest of us are stupid?

ask the questions sincerely, explain your background sincerely and i will then look at the points you raise.

I dont have the time to waste when people dont afford me the bare minimum respect of telling me who they are.

as u are so keen on pulling out quotations from quran and hadith let me send u one - la ikra fid-deen. there is no compulsion in religion! Or the famous surah ikhlas to you your religion to me mine etc.

The real crime isnt your apostacy its your not considering us worthy of telling us who you are and just expecting us to answer your questions. Afford us a little bit of common sense.

[Zolo]

Mudassar-Rana, on 25 January 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

i asked a simple question - are you here to make points or ask questions?

Firstly you dont afford us a little bit of respect by outlining ur plight.

I could register myself here tomorrow under another name and say the ame things as u and who would know any different?

So you believe God exists. but as of yet dont believe that he has sent communication to his creation? and u have doubts over islam to such an extent that you cast the aspersion that 1 billion people follow a barbaric religion and are blind to its barbarism. So this creator only created you who was sincere and the rest of us are stupid?

ask the questions sincerely, explain your background sincerely and i will then look at the points you raise.

I dont have the time to waste when people dont afford me the bare minimum respect of telling me who they are.

as u are so keen on pulling out quotations from quran and hadith let me send u one - la ikra fid-deen. there is no compulsion in religion! Or the famous surah ikhlas to you your religion to me mine etc.

The real crime isnt your apostacy its your not considering us worthy of telling us who you are and just expecting us to answer your questions. Afford us a little bit of common sense.

Even more people follow Christianity, does that make it right?

let me tell you the real crime is that I was not lucky enough to find one Muslim around me when I needed them who would say, "there is no compulsion in religion".

If I am abrasive its because of my experience please understand. I am not calling you stupid or barbaric. I was once Muslim and I reasoned away my issues for years. I am sorry if I offended you, but you see my painful experience had its effects.

As I said you are free to answer my questions if you are able. I am being sincere.