[Zolo]

How can Allah be the most merciful and forgiving if he has disbelievers roasted in hell for all eternity?

For example, If someone did not believe in me or like me and I tortured them for this how would I be described? I would be called ruthless, angry, barbaric, hateful, etc., but never "most merciful". Please explain the rationale here.

[Brother_MGS]

Zolo, on 24 January 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

How can Allah be the most merciful and forgiving if he has disbelievers roasted in hell for all eternity?

For example, If someone did not believe in me or like me and I tortured them for this how would I be described? I would be called ruthless, angry, barbaric, hateful, etc., but never "most merciful". Please explain the rationale here.

If you dont believe in Allah, which means you don't believe Allah exists, why should you be worried about the treatment he will give to the 'disbelievers'? To that individual who doesn't believe in anything to do with Allah, then anything to do with Allah is just plain fantasy for them then.

The moment you stop liking Allah, is the moment you stop believing in a creator. A believer of Allah, knows the greatness of their Lord. Therefore there is no rationale in the question your asking.

The fundamental basis of Islam is God. God is the giver of everything, the provider, the sustainer, he is the Lord over all creation, the universes etc. It is him to who we shall return. Allah has repeatedly told his believers in the Quran of his merciful nature, he sent down a Messenger to confirm and futher inform society about his depths of mercy and forgiveness. Allah has even mentioned his sincerety to his creation that asks for forgiveness and merciful. Logically this implies that Allah allows his creation to make mistakes, knowing that if they believe in him they will repent. Repentance is looked on with great sincerety by Allah.

A muslim's belief is that there has only ever been one God. That muslim doesn't care what say for eg. the punishment given by Hindu Gods is. Neither would a Hindu who believes in his own set of Gods care about the punishments handed by Allah. A follower of a religion only cares about the God described to them by their religion.

This post has been edited by Brother_MGS: 24 January 2012 - 10:03 PM

[Zolo]

Brother_MGS, on 24 January 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

If you dont believe in Allah, which means you don't believe Allah exists, why should you be worried about the treatment he will give to the 'disbelievers'? To that individual who doesn't believe anything to do with Allah, anything to do with Allah is just plain fantasy for them then.

The moment you stop liking Allah, is the moment you stop believing in a creator. A believer of Allah, knows the greatness of their Lord. Therefore there is no rationale in the question your asking.

The fundamental basis of Islam is God. God is the giver of everything, the provider, the sustainer, he is the Lord over all creation, the universes etc. It is him to who we shall return. Allah has repeatedly told his believers in the Quran of his merciful nature, he sent down a Messenger to confirm and futher inform society about Allah's depths of mercy and forgiveness. Allah has even mentioned his sincerety to his creation that asks for forgiveness and merciful. Logically this implies that Allah allows his creation to make mistakes, if the Almighty knows they will repent for it.

A muslim's belief is that there has only ever been one God. That muslim doesn't care what say for eg. the punishment given by Hindu Gods is. Neither would a Hindu who believes in his own set of Gods care about the punishments handed by Allah. A follower of a religion only cares about the God described to them by their religion.

I never said I did not believe in a Creator. I believe in God. I just wanted to understand the islamic rationale. Allah is a deity who basically says believe in me or I will burn your skins and replace them with new skins so you keep feeling the pain.....and he is merciful, OKAY

So Allah is mercifull, next you will be telling me islam means peace. LOL

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

This question infuriates me, I'll give you my reason.

It fails to recognise the mercy of God regardless of belief of his existence.

If you believe he exists and attribute the existence of all living things to him then you will have to start counting the things he has given us. As a Human he has created a body which functions in its environment with harmony, we enjoy food, we enjoy love, we enjoy so many things. The fact God has created us with such intricacy and paid particular attention to making our existence a joyous one and our will to live is indeed a blessing. He gives you happiness in loving your parents, in having siblings, in being married, in having Children etc.

The Earth exists in our service as humans. It grows all kind of fruits for our pleasure. Above all the greatest gift is the mind. He does not contain us in this vast Planet of ours and allows us to roam beyond in our thoughts. He has put kindness and mercy in our hearts to such an extent it has led YOU to ask the question of hell in the first place.

Leaving out many great majestical creations of God, there is a fundamental point which I think you have not addressed. This is that if you believe yourself to be equal to God then you would ask questions about his judgement-as a direct confrontation. Is it not enough that he has created you and all he really asks is you to believe in him, be guided through his Prophet by worshipping him and doing good for other human beings. If you do not do good and commit the greatest atrocity by rejecting him then I guess since he has created you he will put you in Hell. BUT before he sends anyone to hell he gives you many chances in your life to do good. Infact he is so merciful that on the day of Judgment we all expect he will forgive us many of our wordly sins. There is no reason to reject him, such is our mind that we all seek him without knowing. Hell is a place of last resort even for God, it is a place only for people who have hurt others, killed, tortured etc and EVEN then he can and will forgive us.

The greatest crime against our own humanity is to not believe in his existence after all the favours as our Lord he has done us. God is not a bad guy, we are the bad guy trying very hard to not be a good guy.

This post has been edited by Fatema-the-resplendent: 24 January 2012 - 10:13 PM

[Zolo]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 24 January 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

This question infuriates me, I'll give you my reason.

It fails to recognise the mercy of God regardless of belief of his existence.

If you believe he exists and attribute the existence of all living things to him then you will have to start counting the things he has given us. As a Human he has created a body which functions in its environment with harmony, we enjoy food, we enjoy love, we enjoy so many things. The fact God has created us with such intricacy and paid particular attention to making our existence a joyous one and our will to live is indeed a blessing. He gives you happiness in loving your parents, in having siblings, in being married, in having Children etc.

The Earth exists in our service as humans. It grows all kind of fruits for our pleasure. Above all the greatest gift is the mind. He does not contain us in this vast Planet of ours and allows us to roam beyond in our thoughts. He has put kindness and mercy in our hearts to such an extent it has led YOU to ask the question of hell in the first place.

Leaving out many great majestical creations of God, there is a fundamental point which I think you have not addressed. This is that if you believe yourself to be equal to God then you would ask questions about his judgement-as a direct confrontation. Is it not enough that he has created you and all he really asks is you to believe in him, be guided through his Prophet by worshipping him and doing good for other human beings. If you do not do good and commit the greatest atrocity by rejecting him then I guess since he has created you he will put you in Hell. BUT before he sends anyone to hell he gives you many chances in your life to do good. Infact he is so merciful that on the day of Judgment we all expect he will forgive us many of our wordly sins. There is no reason to reject him, such is our mind that we all seek him without knowing. Hell is a place of last resort even for God, it is a place only for people who have hurt others, killed, tortured etc and EVEN then he can and will forgive us.

The greatest crime against our own humanity is to not believe in his existence after all the favours as our Lord he has done us. God is not a bad guy, we are the bad guy trying very hard to not be a good guy.

But what if I do believe in God and I am a good person, but feel that Muhammad was not a real prophet based on his hadeeth and a Quran that reads like a hateful death threat. For this alone I should be punished eternally? In the hadith Muhammad justifies killing, stealing, having sex with slaves, having sex with 9 year olds, telling me that women are deficient in religion and intelligence, why should I believe him?

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Zolo, on 24 January 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

But what if I do believe in God and I am a good person, but feel that Muhammad was not a real prophet based on his hadeeth and a Quran that reads like a hateful death threat. For this alone I should be punished eternally? In the hadith Muhammad justifies killing, stealing, having sex with slaves, having sex with 9 year olds, telling me that women are deficient in religion and intelligence, why should I believe him?

First of all let us explore Goodness. IF you are good in nature then by the goodness in your heart you would not go around using critical tones towards fellow beings who also believe in God. For this reason alone I would say you are far from Good.

Secondly you use one liners to distort true meaning, if you had studied the life of Mohammed Peace be upon him, as a person who upholds good actions would say truthfully that there were elements of his character which were noble, as all other academics who have studied him will say. You fail to do that instead you use loaded judgement in one liners. I would take your query seriously if you had Studied Mohammed PBUH or you had studied the Quran in its entirety. You need to do this if you want a serious conversation about the life of the Prophet and the divine message.

[Zolo]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 24 January 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

First of all let us explore Goodness. IF you are good in nature then by the goodness in your heart you would not go around using critical tones towards fellow beings who also believe in God. For this reason alone I would say you are far from Good.

Secondly you use one liners to distort true meaning, if you had studied the life of Mohammed Peace be upon him, as a person who upholds good actions would say truthfully that there were elements of his character which were noble, as all other academics who have studied him will say. You fail to do that instead you use loaded judgement in one liners. I would take your query seriously if you had Studied Mohammed PBUH or you had studied the Quran in its entirety. You need to do this if you want a serious conversation about the life of the Prophet and the divine message.

I was raised a Muslim and studied the koran. It is false. I apologize for my sarcasm. Still its not right for you to judge if I am a good person. Who of us other than God is truly good?

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Zolo, on 24 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

I was raised a Muslim and studied the koran. It is false. I apologize for my sarcasm. Still its not right for you to judge if I am a good person. Who of us other than God is truly good?

So you dislike judgement when it's on you yet you have made several misjudgements about Islam.

How do you know God is good?

Your understanding of Islam is subjective since it is borne out of bad experience which you have attributed to Islam. Why are you so full of hate and anger, is that good? Why should it bother you if you believe in a God what others follow?

As for Quran being false, I would like to know what you think is false within it.

I don't want you to evade my questions, be brave and answer them.

[Brother_MGS]

Zolo, on 24 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

I was raised a Muslim and studied the koran. It is false. I apologize for my sarcasm. Still its not right for you to judge if I am a good person. Who of us other than God is truly good?

Maybe Im a really stupid guy but I find it hard and struggle to understand a Holy Book like the Quran without the guidance of a teacher. As I know that teacher would have qualified or recieved an education about the Quran, I put trust in him to help me understand the Quran, the same sort of trust I put in my uni teachers to help me understand my degree topic. Firstly the Arabic and the style it is written in is very hard to understand. Even Arabs have found it extremely difficult. I can read it very fluently but because I don't speak or understand Arabic, I dont understand its meaning without help.

How did you manage to understand its depths and could you please give us detailed proof to why its a false book? Il give as many back proving that infact its the truth.

[Khalid_the_Warrior]

Just want to add of couple of points,

If you came here to find the real truth with open mind than surely you will find it.

But on the other hand if you've already made up your mind and just came here to spread hate and pass judgment on us than its not good of you. and you will not gain anything.

carry on and please do answer sis FTR questions and enlighten us on why is Quran false etc etc.

[Zolo]

My main problem is with the hadith, but the Quran also contains some questionable information. In 5:73 Quran says "Allah is one of 3 in a trinity". Muhammad is talking about Christians but no Christians believe this. Also in another verse Allah mentions Mary as a member of the trinity. In another verse Muhammad says Jews claim you will not get to paradise unless you are a jew. Jews don't believe this. Also why does an adulteress get locked away until death(or allah finds another way) and a male who does same crime just gets beat?

But like i said my main issue is with hadith.

Do you believe Satan urinates in your ear if you fall asleep and miss prayer?

Do you believe most of hells inhabitants are women because they are ungrateful to their husbands?

Do you believe black dogs are devils?

Do you believe satan stays in your nose at night?

Do you believe apostates should be killed?

Do you believe its ok to marry a 6 yr old and have sex when she is 9?

Do you believe you will be tortured in the grave if you soil yourself?

Do you believe a man of God would execute those make poems about him?

[warea]

Wow, already jumped into several questions. Is it because the first question didn't go the way he expected?

[Zolo]

warea, on 25 January 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Wow, already jumped into several questions. Is it because the first question didn't go the way he expected?

no its pretty much what I expected. LOL

[Zolo]

And maybe I was hoping it would not turn into this-http://thriceholy.net/tolerance.html#Human

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Zolo

If indeed you are sincere why is it that you never answer MY questions?

Is it because you do not want to reveal your weaknesses or are you afraid that you do not have a clear cut answer to your claim on God?

As for answering questions with questions, isn't that just a way to dodge them?

I will help you understand the various points you have raised if you stop being the executioner but part of the jury.

[Zolo]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 25 January 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Zolo

If indeed you are sincere why is it that you never answer MY questions?

Is it because you do not want to reveal your weaknesses or are you afraid that you do not have a clear cut answer to your claim on God?

As for answering questions with questions, isn't that just a way to dodge them?

I will help you understand the various points you have raised if you stop being the executioner but part of the jury.

What questions of mine have you answered?? Do you really think it was easy for me to admit to my family and friends that Islam is absurd? Life would have been so much easier if I would believe it and could live with myself for believing in this cult. But lets face it, although I have already showed some of my reasons for not believing in Islam; You have showed me no reasons for believing in it. The burden of proof lies in Islam not me to disprove it.

Why should anyone believe in a religion that makes God out to be an insecure, angry, hell bent, vengeful entity? Why should we believe a man from ancient Arabia who thought Mary was a part of the trinity, the sun set in a pond, tells us farting invalidates prayer, that apostates should be killed, that women make of the majority of hell, in addition to justifying murder, highway robbery, torture, misogyny, all in the name of God?If a man like Muhammad came along today he would be locked away!

[YaNabi-Chemist]

Hi, are you a Christian?

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Zolo, on 25 January 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

What questions of mine have you answered?? Do you really think it was easy for me to admit to my family and friends that Islam is absurd? Life would have been so much easier if I would believe it and could live with myself for believing in this cult. But lets face it, although I have already showed some of my reasons for not believing in Islam; You have showed me no reasons for believing in it. The burden of proof lies in Islam not me to disprove it.

Why should anyone believe in a religion that makes God out to be an insecure, angry, hell bent, vengeful entity? Why should we believe a man from ancient Arabia who thought Mary was a part of the trinity, the sun set in a pond, tells us farting invalidates prayer, that apostates should be killed, that women make of the majority of hell, in addition to justifying murder, highway robbery, torture, misogyny, all in the name of God?If a man like Muhammad came along today he would be locked away!

Shall I tell you some home truths of yours.

1. You are not a previous Muslim, it is crystal clear. Your Islamic knowledge could not have been had from your interaction with Muslims growing up. You have blatantly lied.

2. As I have said before you are not interested in answers, so tell us what you are here for other than repeated mantras without HOWS? If Islam is misogynisitc please tell me specific examples where women have been mistreated at the time of the Prophet as a direct result of Islam?

3. You reveal very little about your beliefs, saying you are a Deist yet you betray true Deism. And you have offered nothing in the way of why you are convinced with what you believe, Intellectual dishonesty.

And now you are running away with your tail between your legs. As a Woman I have no respect for a MAN who runs off.

[technocore]

Hi,

Instead of bouncing the ball back n forth, which seems to be the norm here... lets go to the basics... why do you believe in the idea of a creator in the first place ? what is the rationale behind this belief ?

[YaNabi-Chemist]

You've made allot of claims but lets just see whether or not they stand up to scrutiny.

Zolo, on 25 January 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Why should we believe a man from ancient Arabia who thought..... the sun set in a pond...

I'll begin by asking you to show me exactly where it says in the Qur'an that the Sun actually sets in a pond, or indeed any other type of water body.

The rules of debate dictate that you now stick to the above.... we will address issues one point at a time. .

This post has been edited by YaNabi-Chemist: 25 January 2012 - 07:02 PM