[pukka-sunni]

Brother Qadri,

Let's stick to the topic- "A hindu's perspective of Idol worship".

If Vrahman cannot answer the questions raised, what's the point in entertaining digressive tactics???

Vrahman cannot answer the question posed based on his own scriptures (see the way he is responding to truth....). Firstly he invited people to ask question (see Quote1) and then he is hiding from them (see Quote2). He is a clear changeling and turncoat!

Either we get some truth or we do not waste time behind idolators.

Vrahman said in the beginning of the thread:
QUOTE1


Originally posted by: brahman para
Here I will try to devote entire thread to the topic and questions would be welcome but only questions with a penchant to know.

I posted the way hindu scriptures themselves treated idol worship:

Yajur-Veda 40:9: "They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakriti - the material cause of the world - in place of the All-pervading God.

Bhagavat Gita 7-23: Men of small intelligence worship the idols, and their fruits are limited and temporary.

In his response Vrahman said: QUOTE2


Originally posted by: brahman para
Even if all these verses you quote from the vedas are true, how does it make a difference to me in following Hinduism, my religion? How can my belief as a Hindu be questioned in connection with the vedic hymns? How can a muslim question me on changing my belief from vedic phylosophies to hindu dharma?

[silverspoon]

So all of a sudden this idol you worship is not God anymore? but GodHead??? So you are simply saying We couldnt find God, so we created one am i right because so far your comments are suggesting precisely this... which god do you refer to? is it not an abstrat form? what does one get from worshipping a mere stone? haven't i explained enough why hindus require idols to appeal to the divinity? is there any doubt that we hindus also pray to the divinity? your question is still on the telescope bro. please come into the reality of what i am trying to convey. please read my opening paragragh properly. or maybe the fault is mine. maybe i am not clear? is that the reason for your doubt?

[silverspoon]

Why chant the hymns and glory of God to idols? Quite simply you feel that God cant hear you, and the idol can hence you direct you hymns and whatever to him? So God can be represented by materials that He created? such as a plank of wood?? man that is seriously backward come on yaar are you trying to stage a comedy show here??? every friday afternoon the loudspeakers all around me blast with 'allahu akbaralla hu akbar!' you mean to say that your god is deaf? does he want his faithful to shout out loud at him? is it not enough for the faithful to quietly mutter in their minds?is it not his capability to assimilate? are you saying that your's is an electronic god who jingles to these calls. bs bro! we all have our fair share of ego and disabilities. who is the comedian here? apart from decibel level pollution all the faithfuls of allah at least create a 5 hour traffic jam on sv road in mumbai every friday afternoon. because they use the public road for giving namaaz. what is it?it is a power show. can't the faithful(if they are faithful) do it in their homes? isn't it backward?

[silverspoon]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para By praying, he is investing emotional energies and directing his thoughts through the statue to Brahman, the ultimate form of Godhead.

So you are suppose to be a idol? i thought so.. pretty idle the name is chose here, brahman para is 'para brahman'. in sanskrit it means the same either way. i am sure irfan the name is also connected to god in some way or the other. i remember irfan-khwaja and irfan-ul-quoran.

[silverspoon]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para The devotee is attempting to establish a pathway to Godhead by invoking the spirit or divine principle into that statue in front of him. In fact, Advaita Vedanta (Non Dual), the most intellectual school of 'Gyana yoga' (path of knowledge) goes one step further in stating that the Brahman is nothing but yourself to be discovered within you. Atman, Allah, and Father in Heaven are, in fact, within yourself.

Haha Amazing so you are claiming to be God right now? Filipin heck, One stage you are saying you chant hyms to please God, then you say God is within you, So quite simply like the Devil, you only intend please yourself, and your ego? well this is exactly what you are saying in this theory of hinduism? by the way do you have vast amount of theory's? just like the idols? I always believed that I am god. I do not go to temples(am one of the few). i am not agnostic or atheist. i simply look inward and pray. for me it is somewhat easier because i have mastered some of the yogic techniques due to constant practice. i even look at myself in the mirror and put my hands together and offer my thanks to my own image. LOL. maybe next you would call me crazy! but maybe i am not that crazy after all? i do not need timely directions to ivoke god. i do not need helper-objects either. am i not the truly awakened?LOL.

[silverspoon]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para The Upanishads clearly state – “Tat Tvam Asi” (You are that) or “Aham Brahmasmi” (I am Brahman). The Upanishads insist that it is for the 'self' (Atman) that one loves others. It is that Atman/ Brahman that one is searching in that idol in front of him.

So the idol infront of you represents you? Well if a idol is not going to represent a idol then who will...??? Your comments so far or the points you are trying to make are pretty contradictory... does your religion permit you to practice 'aham brahmasmi'? so why even debate the point?

[silverspoon]

Surahe Al-Muddaththir(74)

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para The hindu does not dispute the form of Nirguna Brahman. He believes that the formless reality could be anyone..Vishnu, Allah, Yehova, Tao, holy spirit or the divine ground. When a force or a spirit cannot be visualized but can be emotionally felt and experienced, it is not unreasonable to imagine that the spirit or the power resides in a specific concrete model or stone model depending upon the believer's imagination.

So you feel emotionally connected to a piece of rock? Amazing stuff, On one hand you are saying that God is formless, then you say, he can reside in a specfic model or stone and that depends on the believers state of mind? All i can say is that your religion in itself is pretty confused, and seriously needs to check in for a through check up of it's state of mind, perhaps you can take the idol down to the local clinic.. already explained. please read my opening remarks once again. ou will find the answer there.

[silverspoon]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para The apparent multidimensional, polychromatic, and polytheistic concepts are manifestations of one ultimate reality. That is how Hindus view the multitude of idols.

Hey, at one stage you are saying God is one, then you say several, then you say he is in you, and now you are saying he is multi dimensional? obviously if you worship a idol it would be... let me explain the concept once agiain. 1. god is only one. 2. there are different ways of reaching him...through various religions. 3. hinduism also reaches god though with the help of idols(generally) 4. in hinduism it is not mandatory for all belivers to visit temples to reach god(for every muslim it is mandatory to look towards mecca 5 times a day and pay obiesance in that geographical direction to reach god) 5. in hinduism one can look at himself and believe that he is god and put his hands together towards his own image(aham brahmasmi) 6. idol worship is available but not essential.

[silverspoon]

QUOTETell me what “emotional force” do you experience when you are bowing your head before a lingam (phallus)? What “symbol of divine principle” is a yoni or a nude kali? What “spirit” is residing inside the idol of monkeys and hogs.

Kanz-ul-Eeman
You indeed worship idols besides Allah and you fabricate pure lie. Undoubtedly, those whom you worship besides Allah have no power to provide. For you, then seek your provision from Allah and worship Him and be grateful to Him. You are to return towards Him.

Surahe Al-'Ankabut(29)

all these are connected with interesting stories. but you won't see the concept because our basic thoeries arel different. but these are all very simple stories. ****************

**********************************
Date: 2005.08.20
YaNabi Moderator: Qadri Razavi
Comments: Mr. Para go ask your mother
whether your dad has one or not?
**********************************

[silverspoon]

Kanz-ul-Eeman
You indeed worship idols besides Allah and you fabricate pure lie. Undoubtedly, those whom you worship besides Allah have no power to provide. For you, then seek your provision from Allah and worship Him and be grateful to Him. You are to return towards Him.

Surahe Al-'Ankabut(29)

we reach god through idols (our belief, same way as you reach god by bowing in a certain geographical direction...the methods can be different...the aim is same).
i have no information about the 'pure lie'. if you can provide evidence...
neither are you assured about being provided by allah unless you take care of yourself. nothing is free except belief.
i am in the true path and have the deepest respect, devotion and love for the supreme being as ordained by my religion.

[silverspoon]

Kanz-ul-Eeman
You indeed worship idols besides Allah and you fabricate pure lie. Undoubtedly, those whom you worship besides Allah have no power to provide. For you, then seek your provision from Allah and worship Him and be grateful to Him. You are to return towards Him.

Surahe Al-'Ankabut(29)

we reach god through idols (our belief, same way as you reach god by bowing in a certain geographical direction...the methods can be different...the aim is same).
i have no information about the 'pure lie'. if you can provide evidence...
neither are you assured about being provided by allah unless you take care of yourself. nothing is free except belief.
i am in the true path and have the deepest respect, devotion and love for the supreme being as ordained by my religion.
thank you for the offer.

[silverspoon]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: Asif Khan Brother Qadri, Let's stick to the topic- "A hindu's perspective of Idol worship". If Vrahman cannot answer the questions raised, what's the point in entertaining digressive tactics??? Vrahman cannot answer the question posed based on his own scriptures (see the way he is responding to truth....). Firstly he invited people to ask question (see Quote1) and then he is hiding from them (see Quote2). He is a clear changeling and turncoat! Either we get some truth or we do not waste time behind idolators. Vrahman said in the beginning of the thread: QUOTE1 Originally posted by: brahman para Here I will try to devote entire thread to the topic and questions would be welcome but only questions with a penchant to know. I posted the way hindu scriptures themselves treated idol worship: Yajur-Veda 40:9: "They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakriti - the material cause of the world - in place of the All-pervading God. Bhagavat Gita 7-23: Men of small intelligence worship the idols, and their fruits are limited and temporary. In his response Vrahman said: QUOTE2 Originally posted by: brahman para Even if all these verses you quote from the vedas are true, how does it make a difference to me in following Hinduism, my religion? How can my belief as a Hindu be questioned in connection with the vedic hymns? How can a muslim question me on changing my belief from vedic phylosophies to hindu dharma?

Sir...I request you to quote in toto my replies and not just what you want to show please. My reply to you was: ['OM Namah Shivaya' Asif. Even if all these verses you quote from the vedas are true, how does it make a difference to me in following Hinduism, my religion? How can my belief as a Hindu be questioned in connection with the vedic hymns? How can a muslim question me on changing my belief from vedic phylosophies to hindu dharma when he, the muslim himself turned a full circle, dropped 'sanatana-dharma' and from a vedi he became a non-vedi? Please answer me that? And also, Asif, I am curious to know why so many muslim researchers are suddenly researching the hindu religion and the vedas? Is it not a sin as per islamic faith to highlight anything of a heathen religion? Is there any profound desire for islam to integrate once again with their original vedic dharma?] the reason why i said that was...the knowledge of the vedas was available even to you(or your forefathers). if you diverted your track then and accepted a different religion why do you question me now in following my own beliefs? are you in charge of change and and your own inheritance?

[silverspoon]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: Irfan Raza Khan QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para Namaste Usmanji idol worship is a practice from childhood for the hindu. Astronomers do not study telescopes, they study the heavens. So you are only following what you are blindly because your parents did so? very unfortunate and niave... so The idol is now a heaven? Amazing stuff... Do you have a clue about what you are going on about? cause from where i am your just rambling and defending something which is impossible to defend..

brother... isn't truth the same with you? so why do you expect me to do anything different from what you do?

[irfanrazakhan]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para irfan bad argument.not expected from you to dwell only on the 'telescope' and conveniently by-pass what i tried to point out.

Its a dam shame you dont seem to see the logic, but create your own...

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para your question is still on the telescope bro.

 
I think its its you who assumed you can see heaven with telescope..

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para every friday afternoon the loudspeakers all around me blast with 'allahu akbaralla hu akbar!' you mean to say that your god is deaf?

Excuse but i think, you are a bit.. The azaan is not called to make Allah hear (MazAllah)I know how much you hope Islam was like your religion, but no its not like Ringing the bell in the mandar hopeing The stone will wake up and answer the call..   It to call the Local Muslims to the Masajid and inform them its prayer time, well i guess if you had ever encountered Muslims you would know, but i guess you never went out of the school where you was beatin up black and blue by fellow  
Brahman students?

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para faithfuls of allah at least create a 5 hour traffic jam on sv road in mumbai every friday afternoon. because they use the public road for giving namaaz. what is it?. can't the faithful(if they are faithful) do it in their homes? isn't it backward?

No mate, its called progression, why dont you reflect on your empty temple.. Now thats bacward...   But i heard Hindus bow where ever they see a cow running irrelevent of where it is they just bow, Whereas we The muslims have a sense of where we are bowing, especially if its near a gutter...

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para  yes. i beleive strongly in what i was taught from childhood. my encounters with islam taught me nothing, gave me nothing and continues to show me no peace. right from getting uprooted, beaten black and blue and being forced under gun point to leave everything and run away it has not given me any solace.

Not so long ago you was saying you are a Brahman, but now your sounding like a kid that was bullied at school?

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para today i am enjoying a good life and good health only for the mercy of hinduism and only because i am amongst the hindus. heathen as they maybe to your view-point they at least sustain me and my family. that is religion for me irfan.

I am glad you are enjoying a good life, Praise be to Allah i too am enjoying more then a GOOD life...

But your a barhman, why do you need Hindus to sustain you or your family or for that anyone?

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para which god do you refer to? is it not an abstrat form? what does one get from worshipping a mere stone? haven't i explained enough why hindus require idols to appeal to the divinity? is there any doubt that we hindus also pray to the divinity? your question is still on the telescope bro. please come into the reality of what i am trying to convey. please read my opening paragragh properly. or maybe the fault is mine. maybe i am not clear? is that the reason for your doubt?

Im refering to your Shive, Krishna, vajpayee, Ram, Sita, Hanuman, Ganesh, etc etc

Hmm no you havent really? Explained anything? All youve done is said, That God is in a stone, then you said in you, Then you said, some other stuff like he comes into a rock? Let me remind you if it slipped your mind or perhaps you need glucose?

 

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para invoking the spirit or divine principle into that statue in front of him. In fact, Advaita Vedanta (Non Dual), the most intellectual school of 'Gyana yoga' (path of knowledge) goes one step further in stating that the Brahman is nothing but yourself to be discovered within you. Atman, Allah, and Father in Heaven are, in fact, within yourself.   The Upanishads clearly state – “Tat Tvam Asi” (You are that) or “Aham Brahmasmi” (I am Brahman). The Upanishads insist that it is for the 'self' (Atman)  It is that Atman/ Brahman that one is searching in that idol in front of him.

Now don't tell me the whatever you believe travelled into a statue and created everything? MAZALLAH I DONT SEE NO SENSE, AND WHY YOU FOLLOW SO BLINDLY? well i guess it comes down to family pressure right?  

Then you are supposed to be searching for yourself in a stone? Thanks yaar but i didnt know Hinduism was like that... I thought you just worsipped a stone? amazing it also includes self worship? No wonder the low cast Hindus a treated like dirt.. How unjust, i guess only the rich ones can afford to make this statue to do some soul searching?     

 

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para I always believed that I am god. I do not go to temples(am one of the few). i am not agnostic or atheist. i simply look inward and pray. for me either. am i not the truly awakened?

Quite simply, you mean your a selfish human who doesnt care about any body else, yeah its making sense now, no wonder so many Hindus changed to Islam upon the arrival of Islam into India...  
  
Yeah your defnitely sleeping if youre seeing the heavens through a telescope.. 

 

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para all these are connected with interesting stories. but you won't see the concept because our basic thoeries arel different. but these are all very simple stories. now why are you guys less your foreskin?

Whats the problem couldnt answer the question too shy haha, or just ashamed? Well there are many health reasons which you might not know alot about as Hinduism doest prescribe cleanliness.. 


 

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para we reach god through idols (our belief, same way as you reach god by bowing in a certain geographical direction...the methods can be different...the aim is same). i nothing is free except belief. i am in the true path and have the deepest respect, devotion and love for the supreme being as ordained by my religion.

First you say God is in idol then you say in you then you say dont need direction to pray and then state the idol infront of you is you and you are supposed to do some soul searching within this idol? Then you say you reach to God through idols make your mind up is this a telescope or a stairway to heaven?   

we don't bow to 'reach' as we are assured that we shall reach.. INSALLAH

Mr brahman you seem to be getting pretty emotional please stop diaplaying the attitude of Animals, as we here are civilsed Muslims and do not consider Hindus to be low caste but Misguided Humans who need guidance to the truth, so far mmuch of what you have said is very contradictive within in this one thread, dont forget it is you who intiated this thread... 

[Secular-Revolution]

Mr. Para, please post your comments in a single reply.

[silverspoon]

1. please look at the conversions to islam from hinduism(forget the early ages...look at modern times). only the disgruntled, the oppressed, the suppressed, those who have been shown the dinars...all these unfortunates are the converts to islam. in fact, islam is now recruiting all those who have been unfortunately those who wanted equality which was not offered to them by the hindus. so where is the question of becoming enlightened? jiska pet bhara ho woh kyon roye?

2. accepted.

3. hidden facts? LOL! With all due respects,do you think Sir, that average hindus are research scholars? no! every visit to tirupati, haridwar, kailasnath, and other places of worship makes them even more determined to make that trip again. with every visit they see god. last year i visited the kerala hindu temple of 'sabarimala'. did you know that before seeing the main diety one has to bow before a muslim diety 'vavar'? there is an actual 'mullah' in-charge of the mosque there, right in the heart of the vast hindu temple and all 'kattar-hindutva vadis' have to pray in this mosque if they wish to get their troubles attended by 'ayyappa'. is it possible Sir, to have such a symbol of amity in your places of worship?

[silverspoon]

QUOTEOriginally posted by: Qadri Razavi Another point to add here is that and this is an established fact that while a lot of Hindus reverted to Islam in the subcontinent there is also a vast number who left Hindusim for Christianity due to the efforts of the Chrisitan Missionaries. In particular amongst them are the Shudars i.e. "the Low Caste". They had no rights as Hindus as were treated as dirt so when the Chrisitian Missionaries began preaching in the subcontinent a lot of them converted for Christianity taught equality and has no caste system. Something which Hinduism clearly lacks.

I think I already mentioned that the bane of hinduism was/is its caste system. But, the converts to Islam or to Christianity are not the bringers of knowledge or prosperity to the religions, unfortunately. It is not a quality recruitment but a quantity recruitment.

[silverspoon]

Kanz-ul-Eeman
You indeed worship idols besides Allah and you fabricate pure lie. Undoubtedly, those whom you worship besides Allah have no power to provide. For you, then seek your provision from Allah and worship Him and be grateful to Him. You are to return towards Him.

Surahe Al-'Ankabut(29)

all these are connected with interesting stories. but you won't see the concept because our basic thoeries arel different. but these are all very simple stories. ****************

**********************************
Date: 2005.08.20
YaNabi Moderator: Qadri Razavi
Comments: Mr. Para go ask your mother
whether your dad has one or not?
**********************************

I do not consider this as Qadri responding. So, I will ignore this base remark.

[silverspoon]

****************************************
User Ban
Date: 2005.08.20
YaNabi Moderator: Qadri Razavi
Comments: You were warned about being abusive.
But it seems you cannot give up the animal ways
of your gods. Have a nice recycled life/lives.
****************************************

[irfanrazakhan]

No i didnt know you considered your relgion to be a indian drama serial...  Its quite amuseing to see that you cant answer anything raised,  no surprise as this is what i expected from someone who sees the heaven with a telescope...



I guess thats about as much you can defend Your faith bearing in mind you intiated this thread for Q and A and you havent answered or addressed a single point? but just attempted to promote what you believe and justify it not forgetting along the way the many contradictions you have made...

Well, its nothing new i recall on another thread you claiming you would send people into a top spin, well if this is news you have failed miserbly in a thread you yourself intiated and all you have so far done is prove your frustration by resulting to some of the rude remarks you have made, and make prevailant the blackness and jealousy you have for Islam and Muslim.. well i guess its the vileness of what you are believeing that is being reflected, and what i have learnt so far from you, is your relgion represent selfishness as you have proclaimed yourself, too shamed to answer your contradictions?

please do think before coming on to OUR forum and challenging people, with what ever intellect you have, there are people who see no sense in your theory of stone, you and then travelling into stone, that sounds like a episode of the planet of the apes..

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para please look at the conversions to islam from hinduism(forget the early ages...look at modern times). only the disgruntled, the oppressed, the suppressed, those who have been shown the dinars...all these unfortunates are the converts to islam.

No, they saw sense and some people didnt see any thing as they where blinded by their own ignorance.. I thought the Brahmans where rich and could do anything? Well it seems your point is pretty contradictory to what you are stateing again ... NO SURPRSIE 

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para did you know that before seeing the main diety one has to bow before a muslim diety 'vavar'? there is an actual 'mullah' in-charge of the mosque there, right in the heart of the vast hindu temple and all 'kattar-hindutva vadis' have to pray in this mosque if they wish to get their troubles attended by 'ayyappa'. is it possible Sir, to have such a symbol of amity in your places of worship?

Tommorrow you will be saying you bow to Bin laden? Mate you really need to check in to one of those Hindu research centers, so you can claim to be a research scholar?