Spirit Of Islam: A Hindu’s perspective of idol worship - Spirit Of Islam

Jump to content



Icon Important Announcement!

Like us on facebook!


  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

A Hindu’s perspective of idol worship my thoughts on the subject.

Posted 20 August 2005 - 11:05 AM (#1) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

"Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind." (Muslims & Bukhari)
Words of Wisdom from Prophet Mohammad (sawas)...

I have been often asked by Irfan, Qadri and others to debate about idol and why a hindu worships idol. Although the question has been addressed in bits and pieces, I am afraid most of the time the episodes ended sadly and stories had to be trashed.

Here I will try to devote entire thread to the topic and questions would be welcome but only questions with a penchant to know. Which means...no taunts please. Thank you.

On that solemn note let me start and hope we be guided by above words of wisdom of Prophet Muhammed.

"Let him who is the true seeker come to me with wonder in his heart and I shall show him the light of knowledge"...

When a Hindu visits a temple and concentrates on an idol, it brings about all the underlying ideals of transcendental form of Godhead. When a Hindu devotee sits in front of a statue or idol in his own house or temple and prays or chants the hymns and glory of God, he is pouring his love, affection, and devotion on an idol made of stone, wood, or metal as a symbol of a divine principle. By praying, he is investing emotional energies and directing his thoughts through the statue to Brahman, the ultimate form of Godhead. The devotee is attempting to establish a pathway to Godhead by invoking the spirit or divine principle into that statue in front of him. In fact, Advaita Vedanta (Non Dual), the most intellectual school of 'Gyana yoga' (path of knowledge) goes one step further in stating that the Brahman is nothing but yourself to be discovered within you. Atman, Allah, and Father in Heaven are, in fact, within yourself.

The Upanishads clearly state – “Tat Tvam Asi” (You are that) or “Aham Brahmasmi” (I am Brahman). The Upanishads insist that it is for the 'self' (Atman) that one loves others. It is that Atman/ Brahman that one is searching in that idol in front of him.

For the hindu to reach 'Nirguna Brahman' (formless reality) he has to vividly imagine 'Suguna Brahman' (reality represented in various forms of idols). The hindu does not dispute the form of Nirguna Brahman. He believes that the formless reality could be anyone..Vishnu, Allah, Yehova, Tao, holy spirit or the divine ground. When a force or a spirit cannot be visualized but can be emotionally felt and experienced, it is not unreasonable to imagine that the spirit or the power resides in a specific concrete model or stone model depending upon the believer's imagination.

Saguna Brahman imagined in various forms, shapes, and colors in diverse fashion is ultimately one with Nirguna Brahman. The imminent or apparent reality ultimately merges into transcendental reality when a thin layer of 'Maya' (illusion) is unveiled. Multiple images and idols eventually merge into a single entity. The apparent multidimensional, polychromatic, and polytheistic concepts are manifestations of one ultimate reality. That is how Hindus view the multitude of idols.

...to be continued if moderator gives permission.
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 12:03 PM (#2) User is offline   Usman-Ali 

  • Waxing Crescent
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 149
  • Joined: 15-June 05

Salam Brahman

Why can't you drop the idols and focus on the truth, Allah?

Surely a statue is not needed to channel your prayer and thoughts to God. God  cannot be confined to any object. So why not open your mind to the actual nature of Allah, rather than confining it to a false idol?
"...Allah will guide to the ways of peace those who follow what pleases Him. He will bring them by His will from darkness to the light, and will guide them to a straight path."(Surat al-Ma'ida: 16)
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 12:24 PM (#3) User is offline   pukka-sunni 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: 01-May 05

'Vrah'man

Interesting defense of the indefensible. Are you sure this what all hindu scriptures say? Read on.

 

Hindu Scriptures Curse Idol Worship!

 

Yajur-Veda 40:9: "They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakriti - the material cause of the world - in place of the All-pervading God. But those who worship visible things born of the prakriti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time."

 

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images."

 

Yajur Veda 32:3: "The formless Supreme Spirit that pervades the universe can have no material representation, likeness or image."

 

Bhagavat Gita 7-23: Men of small intelligence worship the idols, and their fruits are limited and temporary.

 

Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence."

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

How is that in light of what your scriptures say (you’re free to disown them at any point of time, like you have done with various gods in other threads), hindus still commit idolatry and defend it as an authorized & integral practice for Hinduism?

 

Swami Dharma Theertha, History of Hindu Imperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 178.

"Their (Hindus') religion is a standing travesty of ancient Hinduism, consisting as it does of rank idolatry mixed with superstition and fetishism of the most degrading type. They believe in the worship of their innumerable devas or good spirits and the propitiation of an equally large number of demons and evil spirits, both of which they assume have their resting places on earth in their idols of stone and marble, gold and silver."

 

 

Tell me what “emotional force” do you experience when you are bowing your head before a lingam (phallus)? What “symbol of divine principle” is a yoni or a nude kali? What “spirit” is residing inside the idol of monkeys and hogs.

 

Since you have started defending hinduism, try explaining the sexual misconducts of various gods, their genealogy etc. You can find a selection from hindu scriptures on the previous thread on “Truth about hinduism”.

 

http://www.yanabi.co...forumid=1#41126

 


Ya Mohammad Ya Rasool-allah
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 12:32 PM (#4) User is offline   irfanrazakhan 

  • Full Moon
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4010
  • Joined: 20-March 04



QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
"Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind." (Muslims & Bukhari)
Words of Wisdom from Prophet Mohammad (sawas)...


Its a shame some quote but never seem to understand...

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
I have been often asked by Irfan, Qadri and others to debate about idol and why a hindu worships idol. Although the question has been addressed in bits and pieces, I am afraid most of the time the episodes ended sadly and stories had to be trashed.


Slander against me again, mate i havent asked you to debate any idol with me, but simply address the issue or prove that Buddha's story was incorporated into Quraan sharif as you had claimed in the Buddha and Hazrat Ishmail thread, God you have serious problems understanding english...  

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
On that solemn note let me start and hope we be guided by above words of wisdom of Prophet Muhammed.

"Let him who is the true seeker come to me with wonder in his heart and I shall show him the light of knowledge"...


So you are claiming to be the truth seeker ? Did you seek from the prophet of islam or are you just quoteing hadith sharif for fun? 

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para 
When a Hindu visits a temple and concentrates on an idol, it brings about all the underlying ideals of transcendental form of Godhead.


So all of a sudden this idol you worship is not God anymore? but GodHead??? So you are simply saying We couldnt find God, so we created one am i right because so far your comments are suggesting precisely this...    
 
QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para 
When a Hindu devotee sits in front of a statue or idol in his own house or temple and prays or chants the hymns and glory of God, he is pouring his love, affection, and devotion on an idol made of stone, wood, or metal as a symbol of a divine principle.


Why chant the hymns and glory of God to idols? Quite simply you feel that God cant hear you, and the idol can hence you direct you hymns and whatever to him? So God can be represented by materials that He created? such as a plank of wood?? man that is seriously backward come on yaar are you trying to stage a comedy show here??? 
 
QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para 
By praying, he is investing emotional energies and directing his thoughts through the statue to Brahman, the ultimate form of Godhead.


So you are suppose to be a idol? i thought so.. pretty idle 


QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para 
The devotee is attempting to establish a pathway to Godhead by invoking the spirit or divine principle into that statue in front of him. In fact, Advaita Vedanta (Non Dual), the most intellectual school of 'Gyana yoga' (path of knowledge) goes one step further in stating that the Brahman is nothing but yourself to be discovered within you. Atman, Allah, and Father in Heaven are, in fact, within yourself.


Haha Amazing so you are claiming to be God right now? Filipin heck, One stage you are saying you chant hyms to please God, then you say God is within you, So quite simply like the Devil, you only intend please yourself, and your ego? well this is exactly what you are saying in this theory of hinduism? by the way do you have vast amount of theory's? just like the idols? 

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para 
The Upanishads clearly state – “Tat Tvam Asi” (You are that) or “Aham Brahmasmi” (I am Brahman). The Upanishads insist that it is for the 'self' (Atman) that one loves others. It is that Atman/ Brahman that one is searching in that idol in front of him.




So the idol infront of you represents you? Well if a idol is not going to represent a idol then who will...??? Your comments so far or the points you are trying to make are pretty contradictory...

Kanz-ul-Eeman
And remain away from the idols; 

Surahe Al-Muddaththir(74)
 
QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
The hindu does not dispute the form of Nirguna Brahman. He believes that the formless reality could be anyone..Vishnu, Allah, Yehova, Tao, holy spirit or the divine ground. When a force or a spirit cannot be visualized but can be emotionally felt and experienced, it is not unreasonable to imagine that the spirit or the power resides in a specific concrete model or stone model depending upon the believer's imagination.


So you feel emotionally connected to a piece of rock? Amazing stuff, On one hand you are saying that God is formless, then you say, he can reside in a specfic model or stone and that depends on the believers state of mind? All i can say is that your religion in itself is pretty confused, and seriously needs to check in for a through check up of it's state of mind, perhaps you can take the idol down to the local clinic..  

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
The apparent multidimensional, polychromatic, and polytheistic concepts are manifestations of one ultimate reality. That is how Hindus view the multitude of idols.


Hey, at one stage you are saying God is one, then you say several, then you say he is in you, and now you are saying he is multi dimensional? obviously if you worship a idol it would be...


QUOTEOriginally posted by: Asif Khan


Tell me what “emotional force” do you experience when you are bowing your head before a lingam (phallus)? What “symbol of divine principle” is a yoni or a nude kali? What “spirit” is residing inside the idol of monkeys and hogs.




 Kanz-ul-Eeman
You indeed worship idols besides Allah and you fabricate pure lie. Undoubtedly, those whom you worship besides Allah have no power to provide. For you, then seek your provision from Allah and worship Him and be grateful to Him. You are to return towards Him. 

Surahe Al-'Ankabut(29)


0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:07 PM (#5) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

Namaste Usmanji Your point is very valid. But, idol worship is a practice from childhood for the hindu. Use of statues can be compared to the way that astronomers use telescopes. Astronomers do not study telescopes, they study the heavens.
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:24 PM (#6) User is offline   irfanrazakhan 

  • Full Moon
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4010
  • Joined: 20-March 04

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
Namaste Usmanji
 idol worship is a practice from childhood for the hindu.
 
Astronomers do not study telescopes, they study the heavens.


So you are only following what you are blindly because your parents did so? very unfortunate and niave...

so The idol is now a heaven? Amazing stuff... Do you have a clue about what you are going on about? cause from where i am your just rambling and defending something which is impossible to defend..
 
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:37 PM (#7) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

'OM Namah Shivaya' Asif. Even if all these verses you quote from the vedas are true, how does it make a difference to me in following Hinduism, my religion? How can my belief as a Hindu be questioned in connection with the vedic hymns? How can a muslim question me on changing my belief from vedic phylosophies to hindu dharma when he, the muslim himself turned a full circle, dropped 'sanatana-dharma' and from a vedi he became a non-vedi? Please answer me that? And also, Asif, I am curious to know why so many muslim researchers are suddenly researching the hindu religion and the vedas? Is it not a sin as per islamic faith to highlight anything of a heathen religion? Is there any profound desire for islam to integrate once again with their original vedic dharma?
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:50 PM (#8) User is offline   pukka-sunni 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: 01-May 05

***********************************
Date: 2005.08.20
YaNabi Moderator: Qadri Razavi
Comments: No personal attacks please
***********************************


Ya Mohammad Ya Rasool-allah
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:52 PM (#9) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

irfan bad argument. not expected from you to dwell only on the 'telescope' and conveniently by-pass what i tried to point out. since we are digressing let me tell ya... yes. i beleive strongly in what i was taught from childhood. my encounters with islam taught me nothing, gave me nothing and continues to show me no peace. right from getting uprooted, beaten black and blue and being forced under gun point to leave everything and run away it has not given me any solace. today i am enjoying a good life and good health only for the mercy of hinduism and only because i am amongst the hindus. heathen as they maybe to your view-point they at least sustain me and my family. that is religion for me irfan.
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:58 PM (#10) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

***********************************
Date: 2005.08.20
YaNabi Moderator: Qadri Razavi
Comments: No personal attacks please
***********************************


0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 03:16 PM (#11) User is offline   pukka-sunni 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: 01-May 05

Veda aur gita to aap hi ke hain. I didn't know that you're allergic to your own scriptures. Aapke scriptures mein itna "masaala" hai ki aapko har baar mirchi lag jaati hai!
Ya Mohammad Ya Rasool-allah
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 04:52 PM (#12) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

LOL! I liked that reply,Asif.
Take a dig at me no problem.But at least we have started doing things a bit more cordially. I see hope.
But I would like to know your point of view on why you think there are so many muslim scholars doing research on the vedas. What do they want to learn? Islam has taught them everything and as per claim Islam  is the perfect religion.
Theek hai.
Phir aaplog hum jaise Kafir kaayaron ke backard mein kya dhoond rahen ho ji?
Aapka vichar kya hai?
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:07 PM (#13) User is offline   Secular-Revolution 

  • Full Moon
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 6163
  • Joined: 17-October 04

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
But I would like to know your point of view on why you think there are so many muslim scholars doing research on the vedas. What do they want to learn? Islam has taught them everything and as per claim Islam  is the perfect religion.Theek hai.Phir aaplog hum jaise Kafir kaayaron ke backard mein kya dhoond rahen ho ji?Aapka vichar kya hai?

Dear Sir,

What is this meant to prove?

There are quite a few people amongst the Muslims who have reverted from Hinduism, hence they know your books and when they revert, they want the Hindus to realise the truth that they have become enlightened to.

Secondly, it is common for a man of every profession to study disaster cases. Software Engineer study projects that went wrong and doctors study cases that went wrong in order to avoid mistakes in the future.

Islamic scholars study your scriptures to make bring forth the "hidden facts" behind your religion, which you must admit are quite interesting. Any reasonable person after reading this would run a mile, so as far as they're concerned, "Mission Accomplished".

In order to assess the brightness fully one has to guage the darkness.



Kaabay Kis Mun Se Jao Ge SR!
Sharam Tum Ko Magar Nahin Aati

The difference between the Mullah and Satan is that the latter is not a hypocrite!
[Secular Revolution - the artist formerly known as Sunni Revolution]
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:09 PM (#14) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

QUOTEIts a shame some quote but never seem to understand...


i understood in simple terms what the lord wanted to convey. if u see complications in it, it is your problem bro, not mine.

0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:16 PM (#15) User is offline   Secular-Revolution 

  • Full Moon
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 6163
  • Joined: 17-October 04

Another point to add here is that and this is an established fact that while a lot of Hindus reverted to Islam in the subcontinent there is also a vast number who left Hindusim for Christianity due to the efforts of the Chrisitan Missionaries.

In particular amongst them are the Shudars i.e. "the Low Caste". They had no rights as Hindus as were treated as dirt so when the Chrisitian Missionaries began preaching in the subcontinent a lot of them converted for Christianity taught equality and has no caste system. Something which Hinduism clearly lacks.



Kaabay Kis Mun Se Jao Ge SR!
Sharam Tum Ko Magar Nahin Aati

The difference between the Mullah and Satan is that the latter is not a hypocrite!
[Secular Revolution - the artist formerly known as Sunni Revolution]
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:41 PM (#16) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

Slander against me again, mate i havent asked you to debate any idol with me, but simply address the issue or prove that Buddha's story was incorporated into Quraan sharif as you had claimed in the Buddha and Hazrat Ishmail thread, God you have serious problems understanding english... Hello Irfan bhai. I have answered you in the relevant thread to the best of my knowledge. Please believe me.I am no theologist to give you a professional reply. I am only a Mechanical Engineer. I have no problem understanding english, I hope. i am a Cambridge graduate. Sir.
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:44 PM (#17) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

QUOTEOriginally posted by: brahman para
QUOTEIts a shame some quote but never seem to understand...
i understood in simple terms what the lord wanted to convey. if u see complications in it, it is your problem bro, not mine.
Sir I shall reply to you. But first I must honour the qeries of my brother Irfan. Please be patient. Thanks.
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:46 PM (#18) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

QUOTEIts a shame some quote but never seem to understand...


i understood in simple terms what the lord wanted to convey. if u see complications in it, it is your problem bro, not mine.

0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:47 PM (#19) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

QUOTEOriginally posted by: Qadri Razavi
Another point to add here is that and this is an established fact that while a lot of Hindus reverted to Islam in the subcontinent there is also a vast number who left Hindusim for Christianity due to the efforts of the Chrisitan Missionaries.

In particular amongst them are the Shudars i.e. "the Low Caste". They had no rights as Hindus as were treated as dirt so when the Chrisitian Missionaries began preaching in the subcontinent a lot of them converted for Christianity taught equality and has no caste system. Something which Hinduism clearly lacks.



Sir
I shall endeavour to reply to you. But first I must honour the qeries of my brother Irfan. Please be patient. Thanks.
0

Posted 20 August 2005 - 05:57 PM (#20) User is offline   silverspoon 

  • New Moon
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 05-August 05

deleted
0

Share this topic:


  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users


Enter your sign in name and password


Sign in options
  Or sign in with these services