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Who Killed Imam Hussain? - Help Needed

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:05 AM (#61) User is offline   H@ydR 

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View PostMystic, on 05 December 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

The Jarudiyah rejected the first 3 calipahs, and believed that Imamate is explicit. This little similar to the 12ers with slight differences. Today, the Houthi movement consists of Jarudiy Zaydi shia.

On the contrary they refrained from Tabara and Takfir against the 3 calipah. The brother who answered those Zaydi questions rejects the 3 calipahs, and like 12er believes in explicit imamate.

Before, Imam Zayd bin Ali (as) started his movement the shia of Kufa belonged to the kaysanites shia sect. Then they began to switch imams. Those who rejected Imam Zayd bin Ali's (as) Imamate said the imam was Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as).


On the contrary they refrained from Tabara and Takfir against the 3 calipah. The brother who answered those Zaydi questions rejects the 3 calipahs, and like 12er believes in explicit imamate.

True that they do not do Tabarra but they do Takfir on them this is what i understood through my readings. The earliest form Zaydi Shiasm is Jarudiya. Now i am confused why would they exist in the first place if their view differ with the children of Imam Zaid Shaheed (as) such as the view of Imam Yahya Ibn Isa (as) or the view of Imam Isa ibn Zayd (as).

"like 12er believes in explicit imamate"

The reason is that the Jarud ibn Ziyad and his companions were from the same circle and have benefited from Imam Baqir (as) and that explicit mention about 12 imams comes from the Jarudis. The explicit naming of the Aimah comes very early in the traditions, its hard to believe it because you know that shias were in confusion after the demise of Imam Sadiq (as), Imam Sadiq (as) did not explicitly appoint his successor

Do you know the 12 imams tradition that it was the Zaydis who first trumpeted the 12 Imams tradition??????
I have a read a book on this, let me share with you later on it.

Bro, i am interested to learn more about Zaydi Shiasm, do you have a copy of the book Majlis in English or Urdu. I have read Musnad Imam Zayd it is not authentic and it is considered similar to Musnad Imam Abu Hanifa.

I find it difficult that the books are in Arabic and my knowledge of Arabic is not sufficient to interpret classical works.
“Prophet (s) said: ‘When I went on Miraj I saw on the Pillars of Arsh an inscription, which I read and understood as “There is No God but Allah, Muhamad is the Messenger of Allah, I have supported him with Ali ”’.
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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:45 AM (#62) User is offline   H@ydR 

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View PostH@ydR, on 05 December 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

On the contrary they refrained from Tabara and Takfir against the 3 calipah. The brother who answered those Zaydi questions rejects the 3 calipahs, and like 12er believes in explicit imamate.

True that they do not do Tabarra but they do Takfir on them this is what i understood through my readings. The earliest form Zaydi Shiasm is Jarudiya. Now i am confused why would they exist in the first place if their view differ with the children of Imam Zaid Shaheed (as) such as the view of Imam Yahya Ibn Isa (as) or the view of Imam Isa ibn Zayd (as).

"like 12er believes in explicit imamate"

The reason is that the Jarud ibn Ziyad and his companions were from the same circle and have benefited from Imam Baqir (as) and that explicit mention about 12 imams comes from the Jarudis. The explicit naming of the Aimah comes very early in the traditions, its hard to believe it because you know that shias were in confusion after the demise of Imam Sadiq (as), Imam Sadiq (as) did not explicitly appoint his successor

Do you know the 12 imams tradition that it was the Zaydis who first trumpeted the 12 Imams tradition??????
I have a read a book on this, let me share with you later on it.

Bro, i am interested to learn more about Zaydi Shiasm, do you have a copy of the book Majlis in English or Urdu. I have read Musnad Imam Zayd it is not authentic and it is considered similar to Musnad Imam Abu Hanifa.

I find it difficult that the books are in Arabic and my knowledge of Arabic is not sufficient to interpret classical works.




I found a Arabic website with information on Jarudi Zaydis, see below

فكان هو الاِمام من بعده وأنّ الناس ضلّوا وكفروا بتركهم الاقتداء به بعد الرسول
http://rafed.net/boo...l-7/46.html#201


From my broken knowledge of Arabic, it basically states that after the demise of the Prophet (saw), people were mislead (dalala) and you see the word "kafaru" on the issue of leadership after the Prophet (saw). So its like doing Takfir against those that deny the Imamat.


“Prophet (s) said: ‘When I went on Miraj I saw on the Pillars of Arsh an inscription, which I read and understood as “There is No God but Allah, Muhamad is the Messenger of Allah, I have supported him with Ali ”’.
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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:15 PM (#63) User is offline   Mystic 

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View PostH@ydR, on 05 December 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:


The reason is that the Jarud ibn Ziyad and his companions were from the same circle and have benefited from Imam Baqir (as) and that explicit mention about 12 imams comes from the Jarudis. The explicit naming of the Aimah comes very early in the traditions, its hard to believe it because you know that shias were in confusion after the demise of Imam Sadiq (as), Imam Sadiq (as) did not explicitly appoint his successor

Do you know the 12 imams tradition that it was the Zaydis who first trumpeted the 12 Imams tradition??????
I have a read a book on this, let me share with you later on it.

Bro, i am interested to learn more about Zaydi Shiasm, do you have a copy of the book Majlis in English or Urdu. I have read Musnad Imam Zayd it is not authentic and it is considered similar to Musnad Imam Abu Hanifa.

I find it difficult that the books are in Arabic and my knowledge of Arabic is not sufficient to interpret classical works.




Musnad Zayd is an authentic book, and Shaykh Tusi opposed Abu Khalid al-Wasiti (ra) because he said that one must wash their feet during Wuhdu. In fact, there are fatwas of Imam Zayd bin Ali (as) where he said not to pray behind people who do not wash the feet in wudhu. So what Shaykh Tusi did is conclude that Abu Khalid al-Wasiti (ra) was not a Jarudi.
Next, not all Musnad Zayd is sahih. There are ilm-e-rijal books which authenticate the ahadith from Zaydi scholars. For example the Zaydis practice Sadl over Qabd in prayer.



As for 12 imams ahadith I believe you are talking about Abbad b. Ya`qub al-Rawajini. I've seen 12er sites quote him saying that he has a ahadith about 12 imams. He says that the first imam is Imam Ali (as) and the last is Imam Mahdi. Okay, but Shaykh Tusi says this man is ammi or Sunni. Anyway, the same narrator has a narrations which Ismaili rely on where he quotes Imam Sadeq (as) saying Muta is haram.

As for Imam Jafar's (as) successor yes this was difficult because of Imam Musa's (as) age. He was way younger than Imam Ismail (as) and Imam Abdullah (as).
Also refer to this footnote on al-islam.org

15. Isma'il was the eldest son of Imam Ja'far and his designated successor. However, he died before his father, who then appointed his second son Musa as the Imam after himself. The Isma'ilis follow Isma'il as Imam rather than Musa maintaining that the former's appointment was valid and that the imamate remained in his family.

http://www.al-islam.....html#Endnote15


As for books on Zaydi the ones on English are dawah material. I don't see them to be solid. Most material is still in Arabic.

This post has been edited by Mystic: 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:20 PM (#64) User is offline   Mystic 

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View PostH@ydR, on 05 December 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

I found a Arabic website with information on Jarudi Zaydis, see below

فكان هو الاِمام من بعده وأنّ الناس ضلّوا وكفروا بتركهم الاقتداء به بعد الرسول
http://rafed.net/boo...l-7/46.html#201


From my broken knowledge of Arabic, it basically states that after the demise of the Prophet (saw), people were mislead (dalala) and you see the word "kafaru" on the issue of leadership after the Prophet (saw). So its like doing Takfir against those that deny the Imamat.




It says they did not believe in the waliyah. As I said they believe in explicit imamate like 12ers. So they said the sahaba disbelieved in the Waliyah (explicit). A similar statement is also seen in Imam Hadi's (as) works who brought Zaydism into Yemen. It doesn't say they became apostates or kaffir.
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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:34 PM (#65) User is offline   CashewNut 

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Shia Scholars admit that they are responsible for Killed Al hussain حقيقة مقتل الحسين



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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:36 AM (#66) User is offline   H@ydR 

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View PostMystic, on 05 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:


Musnad Zayd is an authentic book, and Shaykh Tusi opposed Abu Khalid al-Wasiti (ra) because he said that one must wash their feet during Wuhdu. In fact, there are fatwas of Imam Zayd bin Ali (as) where he said not to pray behind people who do not wash the feet in wudhu. So what Shaykh Tusi did is conclude that Abu Khalid al-Wasiti (ra) was not a Jarudi.
Next, not all Musnad Zayd is sahih. There are ilm-e-rijal books which authenticate the ahadith from Zaydi scholars. For example the Zaydis practice Sadl over Qabd in prayer.



As for 12 imams ahadith I believe you are talking about Abbad b. Ya`qub al-Rawajini. I've seen 12er sites quote him saying that he has a ahadith about 12 imams. He says that the first imam is Imam Ali (as) and the last is Imam Mahdi. Okay, but Shaykh Tusi says this man is ammi or Sunni. Anyway, the same narrator has a narrations which Ismaili rely on where he quotes Imam Sadeq (as) saying Muta is haram.

As for Imam Jafar's (as) successor yes this was difficult because of Imam Musa's (as) age. He was way younger than Imam Ismail (as) and Imam Abdullah (as).
Also refer to this footnote on al-islam.org

15. Isma'il was the eldest son of Imam Ja'far and his designated successor. However, he died before his father, who then appointed his second son Musa as the Imam after himself. The Isma'ilis follow Isma'il as Imam rather than Musa maintaining that the former's appointment was valid and that the imamate remained in his family.

http://www.al-islam.....html#Endnote15


As for books on Zaydi the ones on English are dawah material. I don't see them to be solid. Most material is still in Arabic.



Ok on the washing of the feet, i think it is a trivial matter. Both opinions are right. The Quran only asks us to do Masah. Only Sunni translations put a bracket there (wash). So i dont think it is fundamental. On the issue of Mutta, u see the hadith are coming from either Zaidi sources or Ammi and it comes out of the books compiled by Sheikh Saduq. Sheikh Saduq has a habit of narrating hadith from Ammi sources which according to Shii standards are not Thiqah.

The other thing u must know that Imam Zayd (as) had differences with Imam Baqir (as) on many issues. Particularly on the issue of Imamat. There was one incident when Imam Zayd (as) said to Imam Baqir (as) the legitimate Imam should claim his Imamat through the sword, then Imam Baqir (as) being much more senior confronted him and said now you are saying our father is not a legitimate Imam. You see their contradiction and also Imam Ali (as) who didnt violently appose the Sheikhyn. The vast majority of Jarudis joined the 12ers because of our similarities. I am not sure about Ismailis, but they are the school that claims to be "muslims" but dont do Namaaz, Roza and Haj i mean the Nizari ones.

Nope on the 12 imams point, the Zaydis, i am not just talking about Tafsir Qumi. The Zaidis said there will be 12 imams in their own line of Imamat which obviously didnt happen but the origin is in the teaching of Imam Baqir (as), you see many followers of Imam Zayd (ie Jarudis) were followers of Imam Baqir (as) .Thats the reason you find the explicit appointment and 12 Imams. It comes from Imam Baqir (as) not Imam Zayd (as).





“Prophet (s) said: ‘When I went on Miraj I saw on the Pillars of Arsh an inscription, which I read and understood as “There is No God but Allah, Muhamad is the Messenger of Allah, I have supported him with Ali ”’.
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:39 AM (#67) User is offline   H@ydR 

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View PostCashewNut, on 05 December 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Shia Scholars admit that they are responsible for Killed Al hussain حقيقة مقتل الحسين


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2M2tyNdGLVE





Yazid was Shia or Sunni?
“Prophet (s) said: ‘When I went on Miraj I saw on the Pillars of Arsh an inscription, which I read and understood as “There is No God but Allah, Muhamad is the Messenger of Allah, I have supported him with Ali ”’.
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:50 AM (#68) User is offline   Mystic 

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View PostH@ydR, on 06 December 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Ok on the washing of the feet, i think it is a trivial matter. Both opinions are right. The Quran only asks us to do Masah. Only Sunni translations put a bracket there (wash). So i dont think it is fundamental. On the issue of Mutta, u see the hadith are coming from either Zaidi sources or Ammi and it comes out of the books compiled by Sheikh Saduq. Sheikh Saduq has a habit of narrating hadith from Ammi sources which according to Shii standards are not Thiqah.

Its not about brackets. Its about the grammar. Majority of Qirats say "Wa Arjulakum" but the 12er shia accept the Qirats which say "Wa Arjulikum". Refer to Surah Maidah verse 6.

So if you translate Wa Arjulakum the sentence will point to wash and if you translate Arjulikum it translate to wipe. The Sunnis, Zaydis, Ismailis, Ibadis all accept the mutawatir narration for this verse, while the 12ers support the other narrations.

Imam Al Asi who is a mufassir says this is not an area where Muslims should have disputes.



Quote

The other thing u must know that Imam Zayd (as) had differences with Imam Baqir (as) on many issues. Particularly on the issue of Imamat. There was one incident when Imam Zayd (as) said to Imam Baqir (as) the legitimate Imam should claim his Imamat through the sword, then Imam Baqir (as) being much more senior confronted him and said now you are saying our father is not a legitimate Imam. You see their contradiction and also Imam Ali (as) who didnt violently appose the Sheikhyn. The vast majority of Jarudis joined the 12ers because of our similarities. I am not sure about Ismailis, but they are the school that claims to be "muslims" but dont do Namaaz, Roza and Haj i mean the Nizari ones.


You can't compare Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) to Ummavis or Abbasids. Imam Zayd bin Ali (as) explains that to the people of Kufa.

He says these (Shaykhain) are not those (Ummavi tyrants). So what reason did Imam Ali (as) have to fight the Shaykhain ? Recall in the 12er shia ahadith, Imam Rida (as) says his brother Imam Zayd ibn Musa's (as) revolt is not legitimate. Anyway, we have this ahadith to explain the matter.

Imam Suyuti narrates in Jami Al Masaneed wal Maraseel and Al Muttaqi Al Hindi in Kanzul Ummal: عن زيد بن عليَ عن أَبِيهِ أَنَّ أَبَا سُفْيَانَ جَاءَ إِلٰى عَلِيَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ فَقَالَ: «يَاعَلِيُّ بَايَعُوا رَجُلاً أَذَلَّ قُرَيْشٍ قَبِيلَةً، وَاللَّهِ لَئِنْ شِئْتَ لَنُصَدعَنَّهَا عَلَيْهِ أَقْطَارَهَا، وَلأَمْلأَنَّهَا عَلَيْهِ خَيْلاً وَرَجَلاً، فَقَالَ لَهُ عَلِيٌّ : يَا أَبَا سُفْيَانَ إِنَّ المُؤمِنِينَ وَإِنْ بَعُدَتْ دِيَارُهُمْ وَأَبْدَانُهُمْ قَوْمٌ نَصَحَةٌ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ، وَإِنَّ المُنَافِقِينَ وَإِنْ قَرُبَتْ دِيَارُهُمْ وَأَبْدَانُهُمْ قَوْمٌ غَشَشَةٌ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ، وَإِنَّا قَدْ بَايَعْنَا أَبَا بَكْرٍ وَكَانَ لِذٰلِكَ أَهْلاً

Hadith by Zayd bin Ali, through his father, that Abu Sufyan came to Ali (at the announcement of the Khilafa of Abu bakr) and said: "O Ali, they gave Bay'ah to a man who is from the most humiliated tribe in Quraysh!!. If you allow me we (Bani umawyyah) will destroy the whole thing on them, and I will fill it (Madina Sharif) with Horses and Men (fighters) (to overturn the Bay'ah of Abu Bakr). Ali replied: O Abu Sufyan: " The believers even when their homes and bodies are far apart, but are with each other. And the Munafiqin even when they are close with their bodies and residences, are cheaters (not sincere) to each other, and we have given Bay'ah to Abu Bakr and he is worthy of it".


As for Imam Zayd bin Ali (as) he also differed with his family on staying in Madina. He was the first one to leave Madina and settle outside of it. The imams before him only did it for political reasons. He also wanted to fix the extreme that was flowing through people of Kufa at the time. On the contrary, Imam Baqer (as) experienced Karbala and he knew the people of Kufa cannot be trusted. Imam Sadeq (as) saw many more Karbalas and he chose not to go forward.

There is some details in the clip on why that line of Imamate didn't claim political imamate. IT starts after the 5 minute mark.


Quote

Nope on the 12 imams point, the Zaydis, i am not just talking about Tafsir Qumi. The Zaidis said there will be 12 imams in their own line of Imamat which obviously didnt happen but the origin is in the teaching of Imam Baqir (as), you see many followers of Imam Zayd (ie Jarudis) were followers of Imam Baqir (as) .Thats the reason you find the explicit appointment and 12 Imams. It comes from Imam Baqir (as) not Imam Zayd (as).

Post it here because I only know the narration which goes via Abbad b. Ya`qub al-Rawajini.

Here are the narrations

عباد عن عمرو عن ابى حمزه قال سمعت على بن الحسين (ع) يقول ان الله خلق محمدا وعليا واحد عشر من ولده من نور عظمته فاقامهم اشباحا في ضياء نوره يعبدونه قبل خلق الخلق يسبحون الله ويقدسونه وهم الائمة من ولد رسول الله



`Ibad from `Amr from Abu Hamza. He said: I heard `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام saying: Verily Allah created Muhammad and `Ali and eleven from his sons from the light of His majesty. So He raised them as phantoms in the luminosity of His light. They worshipped Him prior to the creation of creation, glorying Allah and sanctifying Him. And they are the Imams from the sons of the Messenger of Allah.



عباد رفعه إلى ابى جعفر (ع) قال قال رسول الله (ص) من ولدي احد عشر نقيبا نجيبا ( نقباء نجباء خ د ) محدثون مفهمون اخرهم القائم بالحق يملاءها ( الارض خ د ) عدلا كما ملئت جورا



`Ibad going up to Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: From my sons are eleven highborn chiefs, spoken to (i.e. by the angel) (muhaddathoon), made to understand (mufahhamoon); the last of them is the Qa’im by the Truth; he will fill it (the earth – in another manuscript) with justice as it had been filled with inequity.



عباد عن عمرو بن ثابت عن ابي جعفر عن ابيه عن ابائه قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وعليهم نجوم في السماء امان لاهل السماء فإذا ذهب نجوم السماء اتى اهل السماء ما يكرهون ونجوم من اهل بيتي من ولدي احد عشر نجما امان في الارض لاهل الارض ان تميد باهلها فإذا ذهبت نجوم اهل بيتي من الارض اتى اهل الارض ما يكرهون



`Ibad from `Amr b. Thabit from Abu Ja`far from his father from his fathers. He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وعليهم said: The stars in the sky are a safeguard for the inhabitants of heaven; so when the stars of the sky go that which the inhabitants of heaven dislike will come. And the stars of my Ahl al-Bayt from my sons, the eleven stars, are a safeguard in the earth for the inhabitants of the earth lest it may shake with its inhabitants. And when the stars of my Ahl al-Bayt go away from the earth, that which the inhabitants of the earth are averse to shall come.



عباد عن عمرو عن ابي الجارود عن ابي جعفر (ع) قال قال رسول الله (ص) اني واحد عشر من ولدي وانت يا علي زر الارض اعني اوتادها جبالها و وقال وتد الله الارض ان تسيخ باهلها فإذا ذهب الاحد عشر من ولدي ساخت الارض باهلها ولم ينظروا



`Ibad from `Amr from Abu ‘l-Jarud from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Verily I and eleven of my sons and you, O `Ali, are the knobs of the earth, namely its pegs, its mountains. And he said: And Allah fastened the earth lest it sink with its inhabitants. So when the eleven from my sons go, the earth will sink with its inhabitants and they shall not be granted respite.



عباد عن عمر وعن ابيه عن ابي جعفر (ع) قال سمعته يقول لو بقيت الارض يوما بلا امام منا لساخت باهلها ولعذبهم الله باشد عذابه وذلك ان الله جعلنا حجة في ارضه وامانا في الارض لاهل الارض لن يزالوا في امان ان تسيخ بهم الارض مادمنا بين اظهرهم فإذا اراد الله ان يهلكهم ثم لا يمهلهم ولا ينظرهم ذهب بنا من بينهم ورفعنا إليه ثم يفعل الله بهم ما يشاء ( شاء م ) واحب



`Ibad from `Amr from his father from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: I heard him saying: Were the earth to remain a day without an Imam from among us it would sink with its inhabitants and Allah will chastise them with the severest of His chastisements and that is because Allah appointed us as a Proof in His earth and as safeguards in the earth for the inhabitants of the earth. They will never cease to be in security from the sinking of the earth along with them as long as we remain in their midst. So when Allah intends to destroy them, He shall not act hesitantly towards them nor shall He grant them respite. He will take us away from their midst and raise us towards Himself. Then Allah will do with them what He wishes and likes.
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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:56 AM (#69) User is offline   Mystic 

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View PostCashewNut, on 05 December 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Shia Scholars admit that they are responsible for Killed Al hussain حقيقة مقتل الحسين




Why don't we refer to the Quran instead of focusing on what people say ?


And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allah is the [final] destination. (Quran 35:18)

Historical wise the 12er shia of today did not exist at the time. The shia of Imam ALi (as), Imam Hassan (as) and Imam Hussain (as) were all Sunni.
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