[Fekay]

Malaaikah, on 26 November 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:

Assalaamualaikum

I remember getting chucked out of mosque when I was young. It was hilarious an I still remember it like it was yesterday it didn't do me any good because I still went back the next day as if nothing had happened and luckily aunty had forgotten too!! I dint even do anything wrong seriously... My family still doesnt know this happened

I dont think physically abusing a child would do any good to them because:

1. Its tearing them apart on the inside.
2. It is leading them towards going against Islam and everything the masjid stands for.
3. It is completely against the Sunnah of RasoolAllah (s.a.w) , when it is mentioned in Islam the worst abuse one can do is slightly tapping with the finger.
4. They wont want to learn unless it is someone who these children are actually scared of or respect as a person not someone who abuses them day in day out.
5. The child is so fragile and delicate like a flower who cannot do anything so bad that deserves a beating. They should be taught with tender loving care about the rights and wrongs not by physically beating them. If you do so its just turning them away not attracting them to Islam.

I also think some children have learning difficulties which affect them and these teachers dont realise this. They end up beating the child who cannot learn unless his/her need is attended to.

A class of 12-16 years old who know every trick in the book - some flower? Sis wafari, i like your post because it's reads so innocent lol reminded me of my favorite youtube vid - ENJOY

[FSA]

Salaam


The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Order your children to pray when they reach the age of seven and beat them at the age of ten (if they refuse), and separate the beds.”

Collected by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and Al Hakim.

Salaam

[Desert-Sheikh]

Know-The-Ledge, on 24 November 2011 - 08:30 PM, said:

This is what happens when you try to educate the ineducable.

Instead of letting that happen, teachers should stop teaching Quran and start training of circus animals.

Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alieh Wassalam had taught to the most worst, uncouth and brutal students in the world and made them the best of the best but did he ever kicked or slapped any of them or even used a harsh word?

If the teachers-for-Islamic-studies cannot follow the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alieh Wassalam , they have no right to teach ISLAM.

Ma'salam

[Fekay]

Desert-Sheikh, on 26 November 2011 - 11:37 PM, said:

Instead of letting that happen, teachers should stop teaching Quran and start training of circus animals.

Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alieh Wassalam had taught to the most worst, uncouth and brutal students in the world and made them the best of the best but did he ever kicked or slapped any of them or even used a harsh word?

If the teachers-for-Islamic-studies cannot follow the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alieh Wassalam , they have no right to teach ISLAM.

Ma'salam

Isn't the issue more towards 'trying' to teach Quran 'TO' circus animals? In this case it's throwing stones in MUD. Prophet(SAW) was an example for perfection; comparing it to a situation is pouring sand over realities.

Prophet(SAW) never hit a child in their life but yet Islam gives permission for a child who doesn't pray(age 10). The difference is, one's an example of perfection and the other the-instructions for situation.

The SUNNAH is followed out of love but that doesn't nullify instructions.

[Malaaikah]

Fekay, on 27 November 2011 - 12:44 AM, said:

Isn't the issue more towards 'trying' to teach Quran 'TO' circus animals? In this case it's throwing stones in MUD. Prophet(SAW) was an example for perfection; comparing it to a situation is pouring sand over realities.

Prophet(SAW) never hit a child in their life but yet Islam gives permission for a child who doesn't pray(age 10). The difference is, one's an example of perfection and the other the-instructions for situation.

The SUNNAH is followed out of love but that doesn't nullify instructions.

Brother do you know what the true meaning behind this hadith is? Have you read it in context?

Referring to the hadith, it does not allow us to slap or kick any of our children. I explained it earlier it basically can be demonstrated by slightly tapping the child on the hand with the finger, which doesn't even hurt. The word beating used in todays society is completely different to what it meant back then. It was just used to discipline the child. Beating goes against everything Islam teaches. The Messenger (s.a.w) was sent as a mercy to mankind.

You cannot just take a hadith like this one without any knowledge and just start to apply it in your daily life. It goes against our Aqeedah.

[Fekay]

Malaaikah, on 27 November 2011 - 01:07 AM, said:

Brother do you know what the true meaning behind this hadith is? Have you read it in context?

Referring to the hadith, it does not allow us to slap or kick any of our children. I explained it earlier it basically can be demonstrated by slightly tapping the child on the hand with the finger, which doesn't even hurt. The word beating used in todays society is completely different to what it meant back then. It was just used to discipline the child. Beating goes against everything Islam teaches. The Messenger (s.a.w) was sent as a mercy to mankind.

You cannot just take a hadith like this one without any knowledge and just start to apply it in your daily life. It goes against our Aqeedah.

Sis, i was hoping you'd post the context since you questioned my understanding... but anyway, the hadith is in the line of instruction and not ritual; NOW you can pull it towards your point and i can towards mine; the fundamental point is, the tap, touch or hit ect.. all refers to the state of child and his disobedience. It's to make one realise their mistake.

You have to understand, when it's an instruction, it's NOT to be practaced as a ritual. This leaves the entire situation void. Abuse is a no no, we shouldn't border it with that.

[sunniskeptic]

This is a really interesting thread! I have not seen the video of the maulana beating the kids but I am not surprised
it happens. When I used to go to mosque as a child a long time ago it was normal for at least one of us to get
beaten by the imam sahib! i remember one situation where the imam saw two people fighting in the mosque when he went to refreshen his wuzu.
when he came back and saw the fighting he began to beat both of them with a stick until the stick broke in to two pieces. The rest of us didn't dare
to breath loudly after that. The irony was that those boys being beaten were "rude boys" in school but in the mosque after that they were
meek as a mouse. Still, I don't agree with it at all anymore.

I am an adult now and an educator and parent myself. There is no way I would tolerate a maulvi [or anyone else] physically abusing my
child like that. We would not tolerate it if our child's school teacher beat him -- and the teacher would certainly go to jail and lose his or her job--
so why would we tolerate it in the mosque?

Speaking as an educator, I can tell you from experience that the way to make students interested is to make your lessons interesting: make
them variable, hands on, lots of varied activities, get the students to think, add multimedia, discussions, critical thinking activities etc. The
learning by rote method in mosques is boring for the majority. The methods of 19th/20th century India and Pakistan are not viable in the UK in the
twenty first century! Islam is such a beautiful and vast subject that the resources for teaching it in mosques shouldn't be too hard to gather!

Our problem is our maulvis are not qualified to teach in this modern environment. And maulvis should be CRB checked too just like teachers
are.

As for discipline, yes children need discipline but that can be achieved by taking away their privileges etc. Also parents/teachers need to lead by example.

Yes, there are a very tiny minority of out-of-control feral children/teenagers who probably require military discipline! The return of corporal
punishment in schools is another topic. Even then it was controlled and only the headteacher had the right to administer the cane. A stroke of the cane
on the buttocks is a far cry from the beatings afflicted on some of our children in mosques.

Regarding the situation in Bradford I have never been there but by the sounds of it there is a generation of failed teenagers/young adults.
We need psychologists/psychiatrists to reach some of these people. The ultimate blame lies in the parents and in the community which is isolationist
and still stuck in its old mindset -- from what I hear.

[Desert-Sheikh]

Fekay, on 27 November 2011 - 12:44 AM, said:

Isn't the issue more towards 'trying' to teach Quran 'TO' circus animals? In this case it's throwing stones in MUD. Prophet(SAW) was an example for perfection; comparing it to a situation is pouring sand over realities.

Prophet(SAW) never hit a child in their life but yet Islam gives permission for a child who doesn't pray(age 10). The difference is, one's an example of perfection and the other the-instructions for situation.

The SUNNAH is followed out of love but that doesn't nullify instructions.

Brother Fekay, it only allows parents but Mullah-Ji has no right to hit other people's children.

Hadith - Dawud, Narrated As-Saburah (Radi Allahu Anhu)
The Prophet said: Order your children to pray at the age of seven. And beat them [lightly] if they do not do so by the age of ten. And separate them in their bedding.
[Also recorded by Ahmand and al-Hakim. Al-Syuti has give in a notation signifying that it is authentic. Al-Albani has graded it hasan. Al-Albani, Sahih al-Jami, vol. 2, p. 1021.]

[SikandarB]

Forgive me if I am out of context for I’ve not read every post here in its entirety; I like this quote:

“Do you know what wisdom is? Wisdom is to put everything in its proper place – to put harshness in its proper place, to put gentleness in its proper place, to put the sword in its proper place, and to put the stick in its proper place.”

[Know-the-Ledge]

SikandarB, on 27 November 2011 - 02:58 PM, said:

Forgive me if I am out of context for I’ve not read every post here in its entirety; I like this quote:

“Do you know what wisdom is? Wisdom is to put everything in its proper place – to put harshness in its proper place, to put gentleness in its proper place, to put the sword in its proper place, and to put the stick in its proper place.”

Great quote, for what this brigade is forgetting, is the nuances in the argument, they strike obtuse brushes and make facile generalisations, they are living in 'sociology' and not 'society'.

It's like a sociological nightmare they're having, of jumping from one extreme to the other. Embellishing their arguments with crazy vocabulary; with no regard for a contextual place for physical discipline.

This post has been edited by Know-The-Ledge: 27 November 2011 - 04:25 PM