[seeker]

Only 10 weeks?

[piara-madinah]

seeker, on 25 November 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Only 10 weeks?

but I am sure he will do same again.

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

What would be your ISLAMIC-love solution to such problem? If the failure of parents is passed onto the molvis, then they're least to blame, especially for their discipline.(Fekay)

Have you heard the saying 'love conquers all' and the Quranic injunction against calling anyone names or ridiculing them, what do you think hitting is? I think its far worse because the person exercising the right to hit is not recognised as an authority to hit a minor under Islamic law. He neither is a parent nor representative of a court. He therefore has no power to carry out punishments in this regard. Hitting Children just because the parents have failed to bring them up properly is a very poor reason for hitting children. The parents GIVE the right for their Children to be hit, who can trust their judgement when you've stated they've failed their children in the first place!

One can try many other methods before hitting, like a system of punishment if the Children are really indisciplined. Carrying out work in the Mosque like arranging shoes, hanging everyones jackets, one to one intense talking session to reason with the child, rewards for when Children finish a 'sipara', maybe even a ceremony to award those who have finished Quran reading. One can use the services of the Children who have finished to motivate the Children and they can help the ones who find it harder. There are sooooooo many ways one can avoid beatings because then you have used the last resort first!

I do not like the idea of hitting children when they learn, especially when they hold the holy book in their hands, that is outrageous.

[Know-the-Ledge]

Hanging coats, sent home, arranging shoes? This kind of mental violence is outrageous, no one has the right to force free labour and enslave minors. Especially if they refuse to learn a holy book.

Ostracising children because of their unruly behaviour will cause who knows what kind of psychological disruptions.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

The point here is communication, Pakistani Moulvis find it hard to communicate to British kids on their level so end up frustrated and throw a kick here an there, another form of communication and at the same time instilling fear in them.

Some British moulvis have been on the receiving end of beatings and they have adopted a more receptive method rather than using force, education does not become boring but interesting, the teacher speaks on their level and can understand them efficiently.

The British teachers don't just teach the child basic Arabic from the Quraan e paak, they bring in the full Islam experience, the pillars of Islam, stories of the prophet and have a reward scheme where parents can come and watch an assembly of their child reciting a nasheed in front of the whole class as well as celebrating the completion of the Quraan e paak, Masjid classes don't become boring, but becoming educational and interesting.

This is what the next generation need, punching and kicking gets you only behind bars in this country.

This post has been edited by The-Mughal-Sister: 25 November 2011 - 06:44 PM

[Know-the-Ledge]

I will become irascible and lose composure, so I'll just agree with fekay and leave it at that, it's more conducive to forum harmonics LAL

Ftr, Tms and pm, you have no idea what it's like to be a young pakistani boy in Bradfordian ghettos; the people that know and see the social paradigm, support the man who is having to pay a political debt to save face of the apologists.

Authority is eroded, recalcitrance is the order of the day and it seems you want to deconstruct that further; the slave girl will give birth to the mistress...kids will have no regard for a structure of authority.

Having re-read tns and ftr's posts, you are so out of touch it's not even funny. We're not talking abit Oliver Twist or Matilda here, we're talking if young pakistani boys, they're little ruffians and Hamza (the mod) tells me that Al-mustafa deal with them, by not even allowing them to enrol , only the cream can enrol. There are brilliant places of study for kids, but the rejects have to go somewhere too.

You are blinkered in thinking this pack was 'mis-undetstood' or something, please come and meet them, they're little b***ds; there's no other description.

This post has been edited by Know-The-Ledge: 25 November 2011 - 06:55 PM

[FSA]

Salaam

This is an interesting discussion. I have to say Im with Fekay here. I'll edit this post with my thoughts from personal experience. InshaAllah.

Firstly I havent read the story but Im assuming its the same teacher who was on Ch4 some years ago wildly kicking etc.

Even for people who accept physical dicipline, uncontrolled (wild) discipline cannot be accepted. As a mosque student seeing or experiencing uncontrolled violence would have raised my eyebrow where other forms of punishment wouldn't as long as they were fair and deserved.

There are other ways of punishment such as the 'chicken position' (kan pakarna).
We used to have the stick too. It was aimed at fleshy parts of the body.

I was well behaved and hardly faced any discipline.

I think things are changing now and they should. My younger sibling and others attend places which are better organised in which the students engage more with the teacher (english speaking). They are more impressed by the teacher which results in respect. This shows that there are no-violent ways that do work. Just needs some thought on the part of mosques etc.

NOTE: Sorry. Im tired so forgive me for the waffling or incoherent post. I should have just done bullet points.

Salaam

[Know-the-Ledge]

What happened in the dispatches programme (20 seconds of footage in two years) is not the template, nor is it prevalent, nor do I support it exhaustively.
However, that class was of retards, those rejected elsewhere, are sent there; they're no hopers and tms, your suggestions are good, but they're already being implemented, in decent places of which are the majority, except these kids would tear your brochure up, wrap rocks with it and throw them at your face. They're not the rule, but the exception, all other firms of discipline have between tried, now it's physical disciplining to wring some value out of them. This particular masjid (because it's free) is the place they're finally sent, to be baby sat.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

I think the interesting point in this discussion is how the guys and girls are on the opposite ends of the discussion.

Maybe cos we girls believe 'love conquers all' theory

Maybe cos you guys have seen the raw reality.

Whatever the reasons, interesting points all round.

[FSA]

Salaam

Like brother Fekay said, I have the utmost respect for my teacher. I recognise the punishments were reasonable, fair and predictable. I recognise the teacher had our best interests at heart and was doing it for our benefit.

That was a different world back then. These things were normal.

I don't think anyone would accept such things today. Especially when we have the more upto date places of learning available.

Salaam.

[Know-the-Ledge]

seeker, on 25 November 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Only 10 weeks?

You sounds alarmed brother. Do you know something the courts didn't? Or is this just pontification?

You pose the rhetorical question as if you think the sentence is lenient....are you privy to material facts that the courts aren't?

This post has been edited by Know-The-Ledge: 25 November 2011 - 08:17 PM

[Major-Screw-Loose]

10 weeks is still a bit of a laugh, isn't it, hardly a punishment. Bawa Ji will be out in half that time, meaning he'll be out in 5 weeks and may be allowed to return home in 5 weeks time just in time to catch up with Christmas (25 December). If I was the judge, I'd probably give him 20 weeks before hitting the hammer three times with a few echo's of 'order!, order, order, followed by the words "See no evil, Hear no evil". lol

I am glad to know I can tell he is a bawa ji. But was he an imam also and was he a molvi saab too or just a bawa ji who teaches kids some sabak with a few martial arts here and there?

KTL, what does LAL stand for?

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

I thought educated people did not endorse hitting Children, but obviously i'm wrong. I think a lot of how we were raised and treated in the mosques growing up has shaped our views today.

As for anyone who thinks I am out of touch or live on cloud cuckooo land, I do actually have experience of teaching Pakistani Children and the very bad behaved ones too. I seem to have a good impact on Children, it seems the love I show makes them stick to me like bees to honey (I am not making this up!!). There was a time when the Kids always asked me to teach them because I try to make it fun, and mentally challenging for them. I understand the Psychology of people or atleast I try to.

The worst thing one can do to a child who is really disruptive is to hit him, this winds him up more and creates a more tense atmosphere. NEWS for the guys, through love, and understanding one CAN win over a child it isn't that hard!!!!! All you do is show love and respect watch how they gravitate towards you, may take a week or so but it does work.

Anyway I think my points have been made and Sis TMS, I guess us females do indeed have a softer heart than these hard guys.

[sunniskeptic]

I think it is disgusting to inflict such -- or any - physical violence on young children. although disciplining children is important--beating them like animals is not
the answer. What it does is make the child hate the mosque as he will associate it with violence. I think all people working in a mosque with children should be Enhanced CRB checked
just like others who work with children.

[Fekay]

I think the rift is evident here. The talk was of 'disciple' whereas girls have bordered it with abuse; both are far from eachother, psychology of both is different; abused child can sense the-hatred towards him, whereas disciplined child understands his mistake and back to normal in few minutes.

If you look beyond modernism, you'd understand this system has been around for longtime, effective and many have sailed through it becoming great minds, greatly respecting/respectable. Understand that, at the end of the day, it's not the system but who implants it.

A Jahil in both scenarios will likely to fail; weather he implants LOVE or strict discipline. His love will spoil and his discipline will abuse!

For those who're defining what LOVE is, take the situation and put it in a family framework; a mother,a father and child. Mother is all loving,sweet not letting the child worry about a thing in the world whereas the father is the reality check, not so much like the mother but still LOVES his child. Both are inharmony enforcing moderation raising a strong minded, loved child. ONE would so-much fail without the-other.


peace

[Know-the-Ledge]

beatings?
abuse?
inflicting pain?
physical violence?


Next you'll be calling the maulvis hands 'scud missiles'! and that he should be incriminated and put on trial in The Hague for War crimes, naked aggression of deploying scud missiles without America's permission LAL Talk about being a monument to hyperbole

Anyway, I co-sign fekays above post

This post has been edited by Know-The-Ledge: 26 November 2011 - 12:45 AM

[Mudassar-Rana]

in between the non violence and discipline debate - we missed the point. Discipline is never enforced by hitting.Commanding respect and demanding respect are 2 different things. IF a person is teaching, regardless of whether its kids or elders he should have a presence that commands respect. And if that is not the case then he ought to try perhaps a career as a writer or journalist but not teacher.

Learning a religion of peace through violence is akin to bush and bLIAR's attempt at exporting democracy and freedom by killing a million people.

Bro Fekay's example of different types of love is spot on. A mother and father's love is expressed differently though both love their children. All my life my father never hit me - he never needed to his eyes and size 12's were always enough.

Sis Ftr is correct in pointing out the inherent contradiction in teaching islam through violence.

Bottom line is that parents also need to look at themselves - a more active participation and genuine interest in their child's education is required. Currently the idea that you have fullfilled your responsibility by shoving ur child in a mosque for 2 more hours after school is nonesensical. Do not devolve your responsibility and your deen to others.

[Brother_MGS]

I dont know wether its the area I live in or something in the water that runs through Pakistani households in the area. But I personally believe the kids deserve a hard hand or as KTL put it a scud missile now and then. When I used to go read Quran after school, the things we used to get upto before, during and after classes deserve a good slap as punishment. When the Molvi saab teaching us used to wonder off because he had a call from Pakistan or it was namaz time, we used to put the Quran's back on the top shelf and play wrestling. It got soo serious at one stage that 3 of the kids brought their WWF belts to put on the line. Friday used to be royal rumble. I learnt how to hot wire an old school Nissan Micra that had been abandoned in the car park. After Masjid we used to play knock down ginger on every 3rd door on the road the mosque was on. In the Summer we used to have cricket matches in the car park opposite the Masjid, with Hafiz Saab as umpire. He even made the rule that who ever managed to launch the ball into the Masjid grounds got 12 runs instead of 6.

Now whenever I walk past the Masjid when classes are going on or go Masjid when its namaz time, you see little 13/14 yr old boys sharing a ciggerate between them in the alley way opposite the Masjid. Talking like their 'ghetto', wearing expensive trainers and holding expensive phones.

I used to get smacked when I went Masjid, I managed to learn 30 Surahs by heart via that method. I strongly believe that within reason kids should get a smack now and then. Discipline does no harm.

[Mudassar-Rana]

Brother_MGS, on 26 November 2011 - 04:09 PM, said:

I dont know wether its the area I live in or something in the water that runs through Pakistani households in the area. But I personally believe the kids deserve a hard hand or as KTL put it a scud missile now and then. When I used to go read Quran after school, the things we used to get upto before, during and after classes deserve a good slap as punishment. When the Molvi saab teaching us used to wonder off because he had a call from Pakistan or it was namaz time, we used to put the Quran's back on the top shelf and play wrestling. It got soo serious at one stage that 3 of the kids brought their WWF belts to put on the line. Friday used to be royal rumble. I learnt how to hot wire an old school Nissan Micra that had been abandoned in the car park. After Masjid we used to play knock down ginger on every 3rd door on the road the mosque was on. In the Summer we used to have cricket matches in the car park opposite the Masjid, with Hafiz Saab as umpire. He even made the rule that who ever managed to launch the ball into the Masjid grounds got 12 runs instead of 6.

Now whenever I walk past the Masjid when classes are going on or go Masjid when its namaz time, you see little 13/14 yr old boys sharing a ciggerate between them in the alley way opposite the Masjid. Talking like their 'ghetto', wearing expensive trainers and holding expensive phones.

I used to get smacked when I went Masjid, I managed to learn 30 Surahs by heart via that method. I strongly believe that within reason kids should get a smack now and then. Discipline does no harm.

bro mgs - it shows the teacher didnt know how to teach. fear of discipline is always enough. to hit a child especially on the face is haram. in pak maulvis have killed children.

Good can never be taught by bad. because even good becomes tainted.

[Malaaikah]

Assalaamualaikum

I remember getting chucked out of mosque when I was young. It was hilarious an I still remember it like it was yesterday it didn't do me any good because I still went back the next day as if nothing had happened and luckily aunty had forgotten too!! I dint even do anything wrong seriously... My family still doesnt know this happened

I dont think physically abusing a child would do any good to them because:

1. Its tearing them apart on the inside.
2. It is leading them towards going against Islam and everything the masjid stands for.
3. It is completely against the Sunnah of RasoolAllah (s.a.w) , when it is mentioned in Islam the worst abuse one can do is slightly tapping with the finger.
4. They wont want to learn unless it is someone who these children are actually scared of or respect as a person not someone who abuses them day in day out.
5. The child is so fragile and delicate like a flower who cannot do anything so bad that deserves a beating. They should be taught with tender loving care about the rights and wrongs not by physically beating them. If you do so its just turning them away not attracting them to Islam.

I also think some children have learning difficulties which affect them and these teachers dont realise this. They end up beating the child who cannot learn unless his/her need is attended to.