[piara-madinah]

In my opinion if something Holy never can be Fake and if something Fake never can be Holy , Holy means pure and fake means nothing so how can people show that they are holy men and they deceive people as when they pose that they are fake pirs etc and how can people beleive on them , they not men they are shetan and when they are shetan how can we call them fake pirs or fake holy men etc , there is nothing excist as fake pirs and fake holy men just call them shetan .

this came in my mind after seeing the topic on this forum a fake holy man rape a girl at 13.

I want my brs and sisters to discuss the difference between a Holy and fake person or anything else holy and fake around us and give there opinions and discuss if a man does this act he or she whoever they are shetan not insaan.

How can we clean our socitey from these men and women who acting fake and showing they are real , I think local musjids can do this easily if they look around in towns what is happening around and ask people to let them know how many amils jadogers fake holy etc living there and report them and they can investigae and if they found wrong people they can take them to police.

By doing that we can save these 13 years girls from these amils and again parents need to open there both eyes what is around them.

[Know-the-Ledge]

Simple fools make simple idiots. We can't save suckers, they're born every minute, all we can do is promulgate good teaching.
I'm also becoming of the opinion, that muslims should stop meddling so much, we act too self righteous. How about we mind our own business more, which was the way of scholars.
Besides, this was one incident, let's not become paranoiac.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

How can we trust anyone that is the question?

Just because a person claims to be holy doesn't make him/her above from the rest.

Use your brain and common sense when dealing with any person, holy or not holy!

Mod Notice:

Don't bring caste wars into this discussion, I'll only delete your post without warning.
Stick to the topic!!

[Desert-Sheikh]

The-Mughal-Sister, on 13 November 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

Just because a person claims to be holy doesn't make him/her above from the rest.

Basaat Kuch Bhi Nahi, Batein Badi Badi Unn Ki
Bhujey Chriagh bhi Shamss-o-Qamar Banay Huway Hein

Nahin Jamal Mein Unn Ke Koi Bhi Rang-e-Jamal
Wo Apnay Aap Hi Laal-o-Gohar Banay Huway Hein

PS: Anyone who claims to be holy is FAKE.

[YaNabi-Chemist]

The-Mughal-Sister, on 13 November 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

Mod Notice:

Notice to a Mod would have been better...

[YaNabi-Chemist]

Hey, let's all have some fun Guys.

From now on incorporate a dash of red into every post. It's fun.

Example: Know it All

This post has been edited by YaNabi-Chemist: 13 November 2011 - 03:30 PM

[Know-the-Ledge]

I don't even recognise caste, tribes and other cultural pantheons like taking applause for being related to a king of yester-year - how is that working out for you anyway? - and claiming ownership over The Holy Prophet and who can and can't visit Him in Jannah.

So leave me out of your accentuated rhetoric and emotional over sensitivity. You too Faraz, you style icon you.

[SikandarB]

Desert-Sheikh, on 13 November 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

PS: Anyone who claims to be holy is FAKE.

Application of inverse logic would then render the following proposition:

Anyone who (does not) claim to be holy is (not) FAKE.

But then, is he necessarily holy? If he is then, he is contradicting himself!

Oh the illogicalness of logic.

PS: More colors is more of a fun!

[Malaaikah]

No one will admit that they are fake yet everyone will claim they are holy.

Whoever wrote the title is wrong because the two cannot go together. Your either Holy or fake, you can't be both. If your pretending to be holy then your obviously a fake an not holy even if you dont admit to it.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

YaNabi-Chemist, on 13 November 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

Hey, let's all have some fun Guys.

From now on incorporate a dash of red into every post. It's fun.

Example: Know it All

Bro you got far too much time on your hands!

This post has been edited by The-Mughal-Sister: 13 November 2011 - 04:04 PM

[Mudassar-Rana]

just as no fake man would ever admit to being fake no holy man would claim to be holy. As someone said before we look out of the window its better to look in the mirror.

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

Fake pirs are easy to spot, when they are surrounded by wealth, when they show no restraint on anger, being too proud of oneself, and when they do not get their hands dirty in helping ordinary people. So anyone who shows these qualities can be clearly ticked off the list. To be honest I have not seen many real pirs in this day and age, infact I have found something really strange that amongst common people who have had little education, women who one would view as backward have shown me what it means to be a selfless person. So maybe we are looking for inspiration in the wrong people, and putting too much responsibility on incompetent shoulders of a one dimensional taweez giving pir.

I agree in sentiment that it is more important to look at oneself. And please, encourage everyone you come across to get an education, this soon will dispel nonsense.

[piara-madinah]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 13 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

Fake pirs are easy to spot, when they are surrounded by wealth, when they show no restraint on anger, being too proud of oneself, and when they do not get their hands dirty in helping ordinary people. So anyone who shows these qualities can be clearly ticked off the list. To be honest I have not seen many real pirs in this day and age, infact I have found something really strange that amongst common people who have had little education, women who one would view as backward have shown me what it means to be a selfless person. So maybe we are looking for inspiration in the wrong people, and putting too much responsibility on incompetent shoulders of a one dimensional taweez giving pir.

I agree in sentiment that it is more important to look at oneself. And please, encourage everyone you come across to get an education, this soon will dispel nonsense.

yes sister you right fake pirs are easy to spot , they lecturing day and night to tell the world that they are holy men because they got doubts in there heart that they doing wrong and in depth they knew they are not holy so day and night they trying to tell the mureeden and normal peoples who not there mureeds come to me I am holy and they talk about there miricles etc but only educated can spot them .

but the problem lies with uneducated unexperienced people who they deceiving by doing such talks but how can we save them I know that is there own fault as they uneducated or they so simple and innocent and they beleive such man but again we as a community to spread more awareness and local musjids can play a big part in it and especially local radios and tvs but the sad part the media is run by fake holy men and women and they only using that to show that they are the best and holy and all others are fake.

And who they deceiving ,poor men and women , most of them live really sad life because the fakes are ruining there lives and there fault is they beleive that these men not fake so who is the guilty party these fake holy men who pretend to be holy so how can we clean our socity and throw these out from our culture .

[kalakahn]

piara-madinah, on 13 November 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

In my opinion if something Holy never can be Fake and if something Fake never can be Holy , Holy means pure and fake means nothing so how can people show that they are holy men and they deceive people as when they pose that they are fake pirs etc and how can people beleive on them , they not men they are shetan and when they are shetan how can we call them fake pirs or fake holy men etc , there is nothing excist as fake pirs and fake holy men just call them shetan .

this came in my mind after seeing the topic on this forum a fake holy man rape a girl at 13.

I want my brs and sisters to discuss the difference between a Holy and fake person or anything else holy and fake around us and give there opinions and discuss if a man does this act he or she whoever they are shetan not insaan.

How can we clean our socitey from these men and women who acting fake and showing they are real , I think local musjids can do this easily if they look around in towns what is happening around and ask people to let them know how many amils jadogers fake holy etc living there and report them and they can investigae and if they found wrong people they can take them to police.

By doing that we can save these 13 years girls from these amils and again parents need to open there both eyes what is around them.

Our scholars and parents program us in a such a way in childhood to love pirs but no-one tells you what a pir is, so when we grow older we end up with evil pirs who destroy our imaan. We depend on pirs more then Allah (mazallah), go to any brehlvi mosque the topic pir is on the top of agenda, no brehlvi mosque teaches imam ghazali, shaykh abdul qadir jilani, shaykh data ganj baksh r.a, all the brehlvi scholars only promote the karamat of awaliya's in yarmi sharif and urs mehfils, the public will be shouting naara's and the scholars very happy with high position they have in the community and brehlvi's scholars highly promote going to darbars for all of our needs.

If you listen to scholars like shaykh al yaqoubi, shaykh hamza yousuf, shaykh hakim murad they to believe in all of the above mentioned but they will put everything in the right context.

Brehlvi's promote seeking help other then Allah more then tawakul in Allah, read imam ghazali how much does he promote seeking help other then Allah??

I love all the old awaliya's may Allah bless all of them, they were the true followers of quran and sunna, they were people of knowledge.

I rang ummah channel few days ago and I said to Allama Khurshid Sabri, we ahlus sunna wal jamat are traitors, we only do yarmi and urs for food, where is the spritiual food in these mehfils, how come no sunni mosques teaching imam ghazli, shaykh abdul qadir jilani, shaykh data ganj baksh r.a, yet you scholars claim to love them, all you guys do is praising and focusing on karamats only, where is the teachings, why don't you run weekly class's every week or month. You call deobandi's and salafi's gustakh awaliya, you sunni scholars are the biggest gustakh because you don't teach their message that's why we now have fake pirs every where. They cut me off. A lot of people phoned in after me praising me for what I have said. I will ring noor tv and takbeer tv next week. Not staying quite anymore when fake pirs are using our awaliya's names and making money and corrupting laymen imaan, where are scholars like pir naseer uddin naseer r.a., who stood up against the fake pirs fitna, pir naseer r.a. say's in one of the lecture we once were slaves of britisher's and now we are slaves of pirs, now days it has become a trend any layman who doesn't know how to do ghusl, wudu the first thing he need's is a pir, read fatwa razawiya imam alahazrat say's seeking farz uloom is farz ie aqeeda, namaz, roza, zakat, tawakul in Allah, back bitting, takabur, hasad, showing off etc.. it doesn't say seeking a pir is farz, our brehlvi's are not true followers of Alahazrat, they are followers of their lust and desire's, only dawat e islami are true followers of Alahazrat r.a.

Alhamdulila since dawateislami more and more youngsters are coming to know our local sunni mosques are not teaching islam properly, it's all about politics and bashing other sects, only dawat e islami presenting the true teachings of ahlus sunna wal jamat

[Mudassar-Rana]

kalakahn, on 17 November 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

Our scholars and parents program us in a such a way in childhood to love pirs but no-one tells you what a pir is, so when we grow older we end up with evil pirs who destroy our imaan. We depend on pirs more then Allah (mazallah), go to any brehlvi mosque the topic pir is on the top of agenda, no brehlvi mosque teaches imam ghazali, shaykh abdul qadir jilani, shaykh data ganj baksh r.a, all the brehlvi scholars only promote the karamat of awaliya's in yarmi sharif and urs mehfils, the public will be shouting naara's and the scholars very happy with high position they have in the community and brehlvi's scholars highly promote going to darbars for all of our needs.

If you listen to scholars like shaykh al yaqoubi, shaykh hamza yousuf, shaykh hakim murad they to believe in all of the above mentioned but they will put everything in the right context.

Brehlvi's promote seeking help other then Allah more then tawakul in Allah, read imam ghazali how much does he promote seeking help other then Allah??

I love all the old awaliya's may Allah bless all of them, they were the true followers of quran and sunna, they were people of knowledge.

I rang ummah channel few days ago and I said to Allama Khurshid Sabri, we ahlus sunna wal jamat are traitors, we only do yarmi and urs for food, where is the spritiual food in these mehfils, how come no sunni mosques teaching imam ghazli, shaykh abdul qadir jilani, shaykh data ganj baksh r.a, yet you scholars claim to love them, all you guys do is praising and focusing on karamats only, where is the teachings, why don't you run weekly class's every week or month. You call deobandi's and salafi's gustakh awaliya, you sunni scholars are the biggest gustakh because you don't teach their message that's why we now have fake pirs every where. They cut me off. A lot of people phoned in after me praising me for what I have said. I will ring noor tv and takbeer tv next week. Not staying quite anymore when fake pirs are using our awaliya's names and making money and corrupting laymen imaan, where are scholars like pir naseer uddin naseer r.a., who stood up against the fake pirs fitna, pir naseer r.a. say's in one of the lecture we once were slaves of britisher's and now we are slaves of pirs, now days it has become a trend any layman who doesn't know how to do ghusl, wudu the first thing he need's is a pir, read fatwa razawiya imam alahazrat say's seeking farz uloom is farz ie aqeeda, namaz, roza, zakat, tawakul in Allah, back bitting, takabur, hasad, showing off etc.. it doesn't say seeking a pir is farz, our brehlvi's are not true followers of Alahazrat, they are followers of their lust and desire's, only dawat e islami are true followers of Alahazrat r.a.

Alhamdulila since dawateislami more and more youngsters are coming to know our local sunni mosques are not teaching islam properly, it's all about politics and bashing other sects, only dawat e islami presenting the true teachings of ahlus sunna wal jamat

Please bro - why do you blame parents and scholars for - allah gave us a brain - use it. And you yourself promote blind belief by saying only DI are presenting the true teachings of ASWJ - how are you an authority of ASWJ? Where did you learn from that only DI are ASWJ?

These exclusive contracts with Allah upon haq are the foundations of lack of adab and ikhlaq and the cause of sectarian rifts. For a forum that many people claim is a sunny/brelvi/sufi one - paradoxically its full of inflated ego's. No 2 sahaba's thought the same on every issue - does that mean only one was on haq? No it means rasool allah s.a.w produced men of steel and character who thought independantly and feared only their lord. If you want your status back as the best ummah sent to mankind then become a truth seeker and bow your head before your lord only.

[piara-madinah]

kalakahn, on 17 November 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

Our scholars and parents program us in a such a way in childhood to love pirs but no-one tells you what a pir is, so when we grow older we end up with evil pirs who destroy our imaan. We depend on pirs more then Allah (mazallah), go to any brehlvi mosque the topic pir is on the top of agenda, no brehlvi mosque teaches imam ghazali, shaykh abdul qadir jilani, shaykh data ganj baksh r.a, all the brehlvi scholars only promote the karamat of awaliya's in yarmi sharif and urs mehfils, the public will be shouting naara's and the scholars very happy with high position they have in the community and brehlvi's scholars highly promote going to darbars for all of our needs.

If you listen to scholars like shaykh al yaqoubi, shaykh hamza yousuf, shaykh hakim murad they to believe in all of the above mentioned but they will put everything in the right context.

Brehlvi's promote seeking help other then Allah more then tawakul in Allah, read imam ghazali how much does he promote seeking help other then Allah??

I love all the old awaliya's may Allah bless all of them, they were the true followers of quran and sunna, they were people of knowledge.

I rang ummah channel few days ago and I said to Allama Khurshid Sabri, we ahlus sunna wal jamat are traitors, we only do yarmi and urs for food, where is the spritiual food in these mehfils, how come no sunni mosques teaching imam ghazli, shaykh abdul qadir jilani, shaykh data ganj baksh r.a, yet you scholars claim to love them, all you guys do is praising and focusing on karamats only, where is the teachings, why don't you run weekly class's every week or month. You call deobandi's and salafi's gustakh awaliya, you sunni scholars are the biggest gustakh because you don't teach their message that's why we now have fake pirs every where. They cut me off. A lot of people phoned in after me praising me for what I have said. I will ring noor tv and takbeer tv next week. Not staying quite anymore when fake pirs are using our awaliya's names and making money and corrupting laymen imaan, where are scholars like pir naseer uddin naseer r.a., who stood up against the fake pirs fitna, pir naseer r.a. say's in one of the lecture we once were slaves of britisher's and now we are slaves of pirs, now days it has become a trend any layman who doesn't know how to do ghusl, wudu the first thing he need's is a pir, read fatwa razawiya imam alahazrat say's seeking farz uloom is farz ie aqeeda, namaz, roza, zakat, tawakul in Allah, back bitting, takabur, hasad, showing off etc.. it doesn't say seeking a pir is farz, our brehlvi's are not true followers of Alahazrat, they are followers of their lust and desire's, only dawat e islami are true followers of Alahazrat r.a.

Alhamdulila since dawateislami more and more youngsters are coming to know our local sunni mosques are not teaching islam properly, it's all about politics and bashing other sects, only dawat e islami presenting the true teachings of ahlus sunna wal jamat

you 100 % right they only teach there pirs name and permote there pirs only on there tv channels. what is that even they always talk about there pir s kramat etc and again as you said they making money on the name of awliyas but if you ask them they will say the biggest oliya is there pir or murshid and they never say any other person or awliya is big then there pir.

but here you wrong as you said DI is following alahazrat and you said alahazrat didnt say seeking pir is farz but ask DI people seeking pir is farz for them and not seeking accepting only one pir and that is there baba jaan and listen to there munqbats there pir,s zulfan etc and other munqbats as well they copy all naat into munqbats and that is again wrong and not the teachings of alahzarat.

why people always reading munqbats etc about there pirs there is no need for munqbats about the pirs if they good and they got karamats the world know and will know more why advertise as reading munqbats or advertising on tvs that what karmats they got , if they got any fear they will not read these sort of munqabts about there pirs.

[kalakahn]

piara-madinah, on 18 November 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

you 100 % right they only teach there pirs name and permote there pirs only on there tv channels. what is that even they always talk about there pir s kramat etc and again as you said they making money on the name of awliyas but if you ask them they will say the biggest oliya is there pir or murshid and they never say any other person or awliya is big then there pir.

but here you wrong as you said DI is following alahazrat and you said alahazrat didnt say seeking pir is farz but ask DI people seeking pir is farz for them and not seeking accepting only one pir and that is there baba jaan and listen to there munqbats there pir,s zulfan etc and other munqbats as well they copy all naat into munqbats and that is again wrong and not the teachings of alahzarat.

why people always reading munqbats etc about there pirs there is no need for munqbats about the pirs if they good and they got karamats the world know and will know more why advertise as reading munqbats or advertising on tvs that what karmats they got , if they got any fear they will not read these sort of munqabts about there pirs.

Brother sorry I disagree with you regarding dawateislami that they are not following Alahazrat r.a. they are the only organisation that had 62 days course live on tv on FARZ ULOOM which covers all the basics of islam plus business courses, has ummah channel, noor tv or takber tv done that?

Dawateislami gives more knowledge on islam and tackle on daily practices and misunderstanding islam then any other sunni tv, one of my friend spend most of ramadhan month in dawateislami and he said he has never seen alim so eager to teach islam then any other local sunni mosque, when you compare dawateislami to other brehlvi's i would say D.I are no1, yes they are not 100% perfect, there are some improvements needed but overall they are doing excellent in spreading sunni version of islam.

regarding munqbats there is nothing wrong with it as long as it's within sharia, many of the awaliya's praised their shaykhs in poetry.

Moulana Ilyas Qadri saab has written many books, his bayan's are excellent, you can judge people when they are talking from bottom of their hearts and eager to guide people to islam, Alhamdulila the shaykh has these qualities, he is always x-raying people finding faults in people and then he gives them a solution to their faults, a true shaykh is who cures people not turning blind eye. The shaykh is very sincere in guiding people, it's very difficult these days to find such sincere scholars.

Through dawateislami and pir naseer uddin naseer r.a. i have come to know the difference between a true pir and a fake pir, Alhamdulilah D.I present awaliya ikram in a beautiful way highlighting their teachings and karamats balancing both, unlike our other sunni scholars just focus on karamat's and make it sound as if the wali's control the whole universe (Mazallah).

Dawateislami does yarmi sharif and urs but it's totally different then all other brehlvi's mosques, they fill your heart with spritiuality not by different food.

[Mudassar-Rana]

kalakahn, on 18 November 2011 - 12:58 AM, said:

Brother sorry I disagree with you regarding dawateislami that they are not following Alahazrat r.a. they are the only organisation that had 62 days course live on tv on FARZ ULOOM which covers all the basics of islam plus business courses, has ummah channel, noor tv or takber tv done that?

Dawateislami gives more knowledge on islam and tackle on daily practices and misunderstanding islam then any other sunni tv, one of my friend spend most of ramadhan month in dawateislami and he said he has never seen alim so eager to teach islam then any other local sunni mosque, when you compare dawateislami to other brehlvi's i would say D.I are no1, yes they are not 100% perfect, there are some improvements needed but overall they are doing excellent in spreading sunni version of islam.

regarding munqbats there is nothing wrong with it as long as it's within sharia, many of the awaliya's praised their shaykhs in poetry.

Moulana Ilyas Qadri saab has written many books, his bayan's are excellent, you can judge people when they are talking from bottom of their hearts and eager to guide people to islam, Alhamdulila the shaykh has these qualities, he is always x-raying people finding faults in people and then he gives them a solution to their faults, a true shaykh is who cures people not turning blind eye. The shaykh is very sincere in guiding people, it's very difficult these days to find such sincere scholars.

Through dawateislami and pir naseer uddin naseer r.a. i have come to know the difference between a true pir and a fake pir, Alhamdulilah D.I present awaliya ikram in a beautiful way highlighting their teachings and karamats balancing both, unlike our other sunni scholars just focus on karamat's and make it sound as if the wali's control the whole universe (Mazallah).

Dawateislami does yarmi sharif and urs but it's totally different then all other brehlvi's mosques, they fill your heart with spritiuality not by different food.

bro whats "yarmi sharif"?

You know its a spiritual occasion - yet you do not know the name of the occasion?

It reminds me of a discussion with some brothers - who proudly and defiantly stated they were hanafi's - when asked what was the imams name? erm....? its not important!

There is a lot of confusion in how you address DI - is it the tv channel, is it local branch or is it the people in karachi ? Where have you managed to gain so much knowledge from?

The learned never refer to themselves as learned, no scholar refers himself to as a scholar. Ilm teaches humility. Where you find humility you will find knowledge.

[kalakahn]

Mudassar-Rana, on 18 November 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

bro whats "yarmi sharif"?

You know its a spiritual occasion - yet you do not know the name of the occasion?

It reminds me of a discussion with some brothers - who proudly and defiantly stated they were hanafi's - when asked what was the imams name? erm....? its not important!

There is a lot of confusion in how you address DI - is it the tv channel, is it local branch or is it the people in karachi ? Where have you managed to gain so much knowledge from?

The learned never refer to themselves as learned, no scholar refers himself to as a scholar. Ilm teaches humility. Where you find humility you will find knowledge.

What are you going to say about Dr Tahir Ul Qadri he is from lahore so his islam is lahore based, what about Pir Irfan Mashadi he's from lahore too so his islam is lahori based, Dawateislami follow imam Alahazrat r.a. who follows imam abu hanifa r.a., brehlvi islam is not an indian based, brehlvi islam is what all the great awaliya's ie shaykh data ganj baksh r.a, khuja greeb nawaz r.a. and other hanafi scholars followed for centuries. If you read the biography of Alahazrat r.a. he was a great scholar, a great saint and he guided people and stood up against deobandi's and salafi's. He never just focused only bashing sects, he taught knowledge as well and he condemn a lot of practices that are be done in shrines in pakistan. Unfortunately majority of brehlvi scholars for the last 100 years left the path of Alahazrat r.a i mean the balance bashing sects and teaching the true islam, instead all the scholars just focus on bashing sects, no-one teaches tassawwuf, in our mosques how much islam is being thought, the only thing they teach is how to recite quran, where are class's of aqeeda, fiqh, tassawwuf, dawa???

Name me one sunni mosque who teaches the above? I can only think of dawateislami, yet you will see posters on the shop window for urs mubarak, yarmi sharif, where are the posters of aqeeda, fiqh, tassawwuf, dawa?, we have left the fundimental of islam but given nafila deeds higher priorty then farz, this is why a lot of youngeters join deobandi and salafi's because they focus on farz more then nafila deeds.

[Abdul09]

Asalaam Alai Kum.

Hadhrat Mian Muhammad Baksh R.A ( Rumi E Kashmir ) cleared this matter up in four verses.

Maala Wale Sakhee Nahin Honday
Sakhiyaa Maal Nahin Honday
Ithey Uthay Dohey Jahaaney
Sakhee Kangaal Nahin Honday

Basically means.

Maala Waale (Those with great wealth ie,money ) - Sakhee Nahin Honday ( are NOT oft giving )
Sakhiyaa Maal Nahin Honday -( Those who attained Spiritual Fulfilment don't hold wealth ie,money )
Ithey Uthay ( Present and Hereafter ) - Dohey Jahaaney ( station's of both world's )
Sakhee Kangaal Nahin Honday ( Those who attained Spiritual Fulfilment are NEVER Baankrupt )

The above Interpretation or translation is of my personal understanding, please correct this mere mortal if need be.

You will probably not find a better definition from a Aarif Billah of who is Real (Spiritually) and who is a (Fake)

PS... Type the following into google - are NOT oft giving - HOW TRUE of the fake ones.

Wasalam Alai Kum.