[One-True-Saracen]

Aslamualaykum,

In every age, societies, dictate what is right and what is wrong; what is the norm and what is extreme; what is civilised behaviour and what is barbaric.

Today, there is a strong influence, in giving women their rights and this is done in the name of feminism. The views of individuals, people and societies on feminist ideals will be the standard to use on how civilised they are.

I personally agree with this standard, not just personally or because I am a fan of feminism, but because religiously i.e. Quran and Sunnah have 1400 years ago gave women rights and the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him said the best amongst you is the one best to his womenfolk.

However, I don't see the principles of feminism completely compatible with Islam and neither can feminism give women greater rights than Islam. Feminism only deals with the family unit and maybe some aspects of the wider society; it does not deal with the spiritual, emotional and afterlife of women.

In actual fact feminism was only allowed to flourish in Western societies, because of the industrial revolution and due to the lack of manpower after the world wars, so by default and ironically, feminism is man-made.

Being a trade unionist, I fully appreciate and sympathise that many union activists did fight for women's rights however this was only for the working class.

Whilst Feminism only encourages women's rights it seems to at the same time erode women's responsibilities. Thus having an adverse impact on the lives of children and the wider society; which is proven in John Bowlby's theory on attachment.

For this reason, we as Muslims should not be asking for rights of a particular group through our own cultural lenses, but should be asking that every man, women, child, animal, plant etc are given their due and only in Islam will you find the avenues to fulfil the rights and responsibilties of Allah & Creation.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

Right let me get this straight, some people say I'm a feminist when I speak up for women's right. But there are some aspects of feminism that contradict Islam, and Islam advocated Women's Rights long before feminism was born.

So why is when one speaks up for women, or any issue pertaining to them you get labelled as a feminist to null and void your viewpoint because automatically people think you will speak against the principles of Islam?

We wouldn't do that as a Muslim, we're are basically highlighting what is already written but never practiced or brushed under the carpet.

One shouldn't see feminism as a threat to Islam, Islam has all the answers to the so called threat of feminism, don't be afraid or argue with those who stand up for women's rights, embrace them and champion them, like many of the grand Shaykhs

This post has been edited by The-Mughal-Sister: 11 September 2011 - 05:30 PM

[One-True-Saracen]

The-Mughal-Sister, on 11 September 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

Right let me get this straight, some people say I'm a feminist when I speak up against women's right.

Sister TMS,

I'm not sure why anyone would call you a feminist when you speak up against women's rights?

[The-Mughal-Sister]

One-True-Saracen, on 11 September 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

Sister TMS,

I'm not sure why anyone would call you a feminist when you speak up against women's rights?

Tut tut, come on brother, after everything I wrote in my post all you could pick up on was a grammatical error. I expected a more of a debate.

You can't get the users these days!

[One-True-Saracen]

The-Mughal-Sister, on 11 September 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

Tut tut, come on brother, after everything I wrote in my post all you could pick up on was a grammatical error. I expected a more of a debate.

You can't get the users these days!

Grammatical error, it appears you have used the wrong word. I thought multi-tasking was part of women's nature; you know what they say, God don't make em like he used to.

And I can only give a debate if I know what I'm arguing against, typical, women expect you to read their mind.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

One-True-Saracen, on 11 September 2011 - 05:36 PM, said:

Grammatical error, it appears you have used the wrong word. I thought multi-tasking was part of women's nature; you know what they say, God don't make em like he used to.

The mistake was due to me multi-tasking several different tasks whilst juggling an online debate, God we women have to do everything these days!

Now back to the topic and stop trying to focus on my mistakes, after all I am a human being, not an angel as people like to believe.

You're arguing against feminism brother, or have you forgot whilst focusing on my flaws, What part of feminism do you find troubling?

[A-New-Hope]

Here is an idea. The muslim world should come up with another word instead of 'feminism'. The term 'feminism' has too much baggage with it can mean so many differnt things some of which are unacceptable for Islam and muslims. Many people have an automatic distrust when they hear this term.

Muslims are debating genuine legitimate issues but are having to use 'western' terms which are tainted.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

Shang_Tsung, on 11 September 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

Here is an idea. The muslim world should come up with another word instead of 'feminism'. The term 'feminism' has too much baggage with it can mean so many differnt things some of which are unacceptable for Islam and muslims. Many people have an automatic distrust when they hear this term.

Muslims are debating genuine legitimate issues but are having to use 'western' terms which are tainted.

Precisely!

The term is abused, and associated with western values and ideals when the Muslim women is not speaking up from that perspective but from a Islamic perspective which at the best of times isn't heard due to man made laws!

[One-True-Saracen]

The-Mughal-Sister, on 11 September 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

The mistake was due to me multi-tasking several different tasks whilst juggling an online debate, ]

Am I being to petty, if I was to say, there is no argument here, you're just stating the obvious! "multi-tasking several different tasks" Sounds like something Bush would say.

The-Mughal-Sister, on 11 September 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

[size="3"]Now back to the topic and stop trying to focus on my mistakes, after all I am a human being, not an angel as people like to believe. ]

Sorry, I appologise for picking at your flaws, and you have clearly demonstrated you're a human being. Maybe you're making all these mistakes because you're looking for answers in feminism which by its nature is flawed; only if you looked at Islam, which is a complete and perfect holistic system to human life, maybe then you will not be making so many errors. As many of the Great Shaykhs had done in the past.

The-Mughal-Sister, on 11 September 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

[size="3"]You're arguing against feminism brother, or have you forgot whilst focusing on my flaws, What part of feminism do you find troubling?

The part which stops your brain functioning as the way Allah had wanted it to.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

One-True-Saracen, on 11 September 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

Am I being to petty, if I was to say, there is no argument here, you're just stating the obvious! "multi-tasking several different tasks" Sounds like something Bush would say.



Sorry, I appologise for picking at your flaws, and you have clearly demonstrated you're a human being. Maybe you're making all these mistakes because you're looking for answers in feminism which by its nature is flawed; only if you looked at Islam, which is a complete and perfect holistic system to human life, maybe then you will not be making so many errors. As many of the Great Shaykhs had done in the past.



The part which stops your brain functioning as the way Allah had wanted it to.

Are you referring to the speech that women are mentally deficient from men? If you have the correct sound, Quraan and Hadith reference please post it for a proper guidance.

Your post lacks sound argument, you are opposing views of feminism and not stated what the views are, I have clearly stated that I support women's right and western feminism and their ideologies contradict Islam. So how can you say that I am looking for answers in western values?

Sometimes I wonder what posts you read? Or do you read between the lines!

And comparing me to the ex-president of the USA, now there's something I never thought of doing, running USA, I like that idea.

This post has been edited by The-Mughal-Sister: 11 September 2011 - 06:03 PM

[One-True-Saracen]

The-Mughal-Sister, on 11 September 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

Are you referring to the speech that women are mentally deficient from men? If you have the correct sound, Quraan and Hadith reference please post it for a proper guidance.

Your post lacks sound argument, you are opposing views of feminism and not stated what the views are, I have clearly stated that I support women's right and western feminism and their ideologies contradict Islam. So how can you say that I am looking for answers in western values?

Sometimes I wonder what posts you read? Or do you read between the lines!

And comparing me to the ex-president of the USA, now there's something I never thought of doing, running USA, I like that idea.

Excuse my bantering, and don't flatter yourself by thinking that this was some type of a debate. I am also amused that you have gone back and edited your initial post.

However you make the mistake again here

"I have clearly stated that I support women's right and western feminism and their ideologies contradict Islam"

You support something whilst you acknowledge that it contradicts Islam, forgive me but I am not one to read between the lines, so can you please elaborate on your words.

And I'm off now to replace the light bulb in the kitchen so the Mrs can make some hot chappatis (this ayn't no joke)

[The-Mughal-Sister]

One-True-Saracen, on 11 September 2011 - 06:17 PM, said:

Excuse my bantering, and don't flatter yourself by thinking that this was some type of a debate. I am also amused that you have gone back and edited your initial post.

However you make the mistake again here

"I have clearly stated that I support women's right and western feminism and their ideologies contradict Islam"

You support something whilst you acknowledge that it contradicts Islam, forgive me but I am not one to read between the lines, so can you please elaborate on your words.

And I'm off now to replace the light bulb in the kitchen so the Mrs can make some hot chappatis (this ayn't no joke)

Seems like you took my light banter offensive.

1: I'm a stickler for spellings and grammer of course I would amend my mistakes,

2: Debate doesn't flatter me, compliments do. I think that's where your going wrong with the women folk by offering them debates as form of flattery. Try saying, you look nice in that dress, rather than you wanna argue, you might get some extra roti with butter on the top.

3. If you would let me correct, and explain my sentence, please don't get offended as I amend my grammatical error, it's not you, it's me:

I have clearly stated that I support women's right. (full stop) Western feminism and their ideologies contradict Islam.

Now is that better, and by the way make sure you switch the light off before you change the bulb 'cos the bulb can be mighty hot, or maybe use a cloth when handling the bulb, 'cos us evil "feminist" have changed the manly bulb! Shame on us, and further more as I am readily confessing my sins, I've.....I've rewired and changed a fuse on a plug! Oh Allah!

Oh please forgive me, don't stone me to death, I know women are not supposed to touch men's tools, but I couldn't help it!!

80 lashes for me!

[Fatema-the-resplendent]

I don't know how this thread eluded me but here I am.

One True Saracen, you suggested that Feminism stops short of delivering womens rights when it comes up against the rights Islam gives to women. I don't think anyone disagrees with you there becuase Islam indeed secures rights of every individual even the unborn Child!!

The problem is as you should know that Islam is not really adhered to fully these days, since Religion suffers from interpretation the Internet inspired Mullah will use Islam to degrade women as you do. The essence of Islam is surpassed in the attempt to prove ones view point. It is not anyones fault that hundreds of years of familial cultural tradition which demeans women is difficult to change. Perhaps its ones origin which is at fault how many of us are descendents of Hindu Pheasants or farmers whose outlook on Women is not the best. It is hard to change the mindset of an INSECURE man who can not take that an independent woman with her own mind has come along, he reaches the conclusion that surely her view must be from Feminism. It is not possible that she is inspired by strong women in the history of Islam like Khadija, Maryam, Fatema, Zainab and Aisha? As brother Tahir says rights must be taken and when it is the weak men fall in fury all around us. Surely the woman who asks her rights must be a unislamic, liberated feminist.

Tut, Tut, what intellectual carnage are you displaying? Please go and think about the nonsense which comes out of your mind, TMS is not a feminist as you understand it she is a strong muslim woman who adheres to Islamic principles and can take any man on who is as weak as you are.

[Tahir-Riaz]

One-True-Saracen, on 11 September 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

The part which stops your brain functioning as the way Allah had wanted it to.

Strange, God wanted something to function in a certain way and suddenly it
abandoned His wishes and command??? Interesting, should I read this as a defect?

Yusuf Ali (3:47)
She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

What happend to kun fayakoon ("Be" and it IS) !! ?

[The-Mughal-Sister]

Fatema-the-resplendent, on 11 September 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

I don't know how this thread eluded me but here I am.

One True Saracen, you suggested that Feminism stops short of delivering womens rights when it comes up against the rights Islam gives to women. I don't think anyone disagrees with you there becuase Islam indeed secures rights of every individual even the unborn Child!!

The problem is as you should know that Islam is not really adhered to fully these days, since Religion suffers from interpretation the Internet inspired Mullah will use Islam to degrade women as you do. The essence of Islam is surpassed in the attempt to prove ones view point. It is not anyones fault that hundreds of years of familial cultural tradition which demeans women is difficult to change. Perhaps its ones origin which is at fault how many of us are descendents of Hindu Pheasants or farmers whose outlook on Women is not the best. It is hard to change the mindset of an INSECURE man who can not take that an independent woman with her own mind has come along, he reaches the conclusion that surely her view must be from Feminism. It is not possible that she is inspired by strong women in the history of Islam like Khadija, Maryam, Fatema, Zainab and Aisha? As brother Tahir says rights must be taken and when it is the weak men fall in fury all around us. Surely the woman who asks her rights must be a unislamic, liberated feminist.

Tut, Tut, what intellectual carnage are you displaying? Please go and think about the nonsense which comes out of your mind, TMS is not a feminist as you understand it she is a strong muslim woman who adheres to Islamic principles and can take any man on who is as weak as you are.

Very well said!

Men like to disparage Muslim women by labelling them as feminists, Brother OTS is a perfect text book example

[A-New-Hope]

So has anyone thought of an alternative (neutral) term for feminism yet?

[Merazul]

Shang_Tsung, on 11 September 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

So has anyone thought of an alternative (neutral) term for feminism yet?

Yes. Masculism. I prefer calling it blokism though.

[Imran.]

Shang_Tsung, on 11 September 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

So has anyone thought of an alternative (neutral) term for feminism yet?

Deluded?

[Tahir-Riaz]

Shang_Tsung, on 11 September 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

So has anyone thought of an alternative (neutral) term for feminism yet?

Hmmmm...

How about Muslimah With Mustache (MWM)

[Mudassar-Rana]

Imran., on 11 September 2011 - 10:52 PM, said:

Deluded?

microwave, dishwasher, washing machine - means feminism beat us poor downtrodden males hands down due to japanese male geeks. Give it a few more years there will be a male rights movement started by the mangetar community in the western world!

"hamay hamara haq chahye, zulm se nijaat chahye, khwateen ki humaraani band karo" - this movement will be led by many notable scholars who will be moved by the plight of their mureedein and the shortage of financial appreciation. Leading to taking up menial employment for former ghazi's, shers, babbar shers, and even bigger poora tabbar sher's.