[Qadri-Jilani]

There is no problem of 18 degrees twilight in August. You will have this problem in forthcoming years but not this year!

This is what I find very unfortunate. This year there should be no ikhtilaf at all. Astronomical twilight (-18 degrees) begins in August so it should be straight forward for everyone. If we are having differences when there should be no difference think what will happen in future years when Fajr will enter during Maghrib where the sun will not go below 18 degrees. That's what you can expect ikhtilaaf but what's happening now is just plain silly.

[Qadri-Jilani]

"Eat and drink until the white thread becomes distinct to you from the black thread of dawn"
The Holy Qur'an, Surah al-Baqara, verse 187.



Astronomical Twilight

[blogger]

 Qadri-Jilani, on 02 August 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

There is no problem of 18 degrees twilight in August. You will have this problem in forthcoming years but not this year!

This is what I find very unfortunate. This year there should be no ikhtilaf at all. Astronomical twilight (-18 degrees) begins in August so it should be straight forward for everyone. If we are having differences when there should be no difference think what will happen in future years when Fajr will enter during Maghrib where the sun will not go below 18 degrees. That's what you can expect ikhtilaaf but what's happening now is just plain silly.

I'm not sure what you're saying, at which degree are you proposing we do Sehri (Fajr start time) in late May or mid July, when Astronomical Twilight occurs throughout the whole night (The Sun does not go below 18 degrees). Can we really apply Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih's ruling throughout the whole year? If not, then the 18 degree formula is flawed as well but I do accept it's the safest option for now.

Sticking to a certain degree or setting a fixed time before sunrise is not the answer. We have to actually carry out observations throughout the whole year (I believe a group of people in Birmingham have been recording their observations on a daily basis). There is no fixed formula that can be used throughout the whole year here in the UK, Observation is the way forward. Surely, we can put our differences be it Deo,Wah,Salafi to one side and come together to observe the Subah Sadiq.

The month of Ramadan (is that) in which the Qur’an has been sent down as guidance for mankind containing clear Signs which lead (to the straight road) and distinguish (the Truth from falsehood)... Allah desires ease for you and does not desire hardship for you so that you complete the prescribed number of fasting days, and that you glorify Him for the guidance which He has blessed you with, and that you may become grateful.
Quran 2:185
Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow)

[Qadri-Jilani]

I have already commented on this. What I said was that this year there should be no disagreement because from August you can close the fast according to astronomical twilight (-18 degrees). This is what is so upsetting! Why are people causing problems when there should be no problems!?

In forthcoming years there will be persistent twilight and this is where Ulama really need to sit down and work something out. My worry is that if they are devising timetables on completely bogus grounds when astronomical twilight actually occurs then what is to say of the coming years when we cannot use astronomical twilight!?

These are issues that must be addressed before next Ramadan Sharif, what I am talking about is the Fajr time for this year.

None of the Masajid that are using anything other than 18 degrees have carried out any kind of observation. They have not come forward with any evidence or basis on which they are doing Sehri an hour late. There are a group of deobandis in the UK who have made observations for over a year and they found that their observations concur with -18 degrees throughout the year. This is the opinion of all the astronomical bodies and organisations from all over the world

[blogger]

 Qadri-Jilani, on 03 August 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

I have already commented on this. What I said was that this year there should be no disagreement because from August you can close the fast according to astronomical twilight (-18 degrees). This is what is so upsetting! Why are people causing problems when there should be no problems!?

How can one be so confident that others are wrong, when the formula of 18 degrees is so impractical?

Everyone is in agreement that Subh Sadiq (True Dawn) signifies the start of Fajr and end of Sehri. Fundamental practical forms of worshipare to be carried out by laymen, scholars, the young and the old based on understanding and implementation of True Dawn. The fiqhi understanding is not expected to be limited to the experts (Khaas) but common (Aamm) people should be able to comprehend and implement the law so that they can fulfil compulsory forms of worship such as Fasting and Salaat wherever they are, be it familiar surroundings or foreign grounds.


Islamic Definiton of True Dawn
The Quran clearly defines True Dawn:
"Eat and drink until the white thread becomes distinct to you from the black thread of dawn" (2:187).

However, importantly before defining True Dawn (2 verses earlier) the Quran states:
"... Allah desires ease for you and does not desire hardship for you" (2:185)

Another verse alluding to the same
"... has not laid upon you any hardship or constriction (in the matter of) Religion" (22:78).

Twilight (As-Shafaq) refers to the light emitted by the Sun, visible on the horizon sky before sunrise and after sunset. Does Astronomical Twilight fit the description of true dawn as stated in the Quran? Can it be easily deduced by the common man? Hadiths mention words like "seeing it" and "observing", the Quran also states "distinct to you", Shari principles dictate that we give emphasis on the observations of the naked eye as we do for the sighting of the new moon where science is used for guidance.


Scientific definition of Astronomical Twilight
When you look up the definiton you will realise that it is very hard to observe Astronomical Twilight with the naked eye:

""Astronomical twilight...the period while the Sun's center is between 18 degrees and 12 degrees below the horizon. To both navigators and the civil population it is then 'night-time,' with little discernible sunlight diffusing the sky. The horizon would be too indistinct for sight-taking, so the Nautical Almanac carries no listing of the event." [Crawford, W.P., Mariner's Celestial Navigation]

Astronomical twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 18 degrees below the horizon. Before the beginning of astronomical twilight in the morning and after the end of astronomical twilight in the evening the Sun does not contribute to sky illumination; for a considerable interval after the beginning of morning twilight and before the end of evening twilight, sky illumination is so faint that it is practically imperceptible.[US Naval Observatory]

During Astronomical Twilight the sky is dark enough to view distant stars. I find it hard to accept that this qualifies as True Dawn as a non-scientist would find it hard to ascertain. How can we expect to pray Fajr or start fasting by a natural occurance which cannot be seen by common people? Remember, there is no harship in religion and it is not constrained to experts alone.


Nautical Twilight is better qualified to satisfy the Islamic definition of True Dawn
I believe the Nautical Twilight (12 degrees) is more closer to the True Dawn as stated in Shariah than Astronomical Twilight, it is a light whch can be observed by people and it is a light which spreads over the horizon making it distinct. 'Nautical' relates to the fact that this is the light with which navigators are able to make out the horizon with the naked eye. Nautical Twilight definition:

"Next comes nautical (or navigational) twilight, during which small details are lost in darkness, but outlines of large objects such as shorelines are fairly distinct." [Rozenburn, G.V., Twilight: a study in Atmospheric Optics]

Strictly speaking scientifically the morning commences with the Astronomical Twilight however, as True Dawn should be observed by the general public at large the morining starts from the Nautical Twilight for the civilian population. The horizon only becomes visible for the common people at the point of Nautical Twilight, therefore satisfying the Shari principles.

"In the morning, nautical twilight is the first to begin."[Crawford, W.P., Mariner's Celestial Navigation]


Having preferred Nautical Twilight above Astronomical Twilight I still feel that the exact moment of True Dawn cannot be known precisely based on degrees. Observations alone can provide an adequate answer and I fail to see why we cannot carry out collective (regardless of creed/sect) research using technology available to us. There is no fiqhi difference of opinion o what constitutes True Dawn because the Quran and Hadiths provide very clear guidance.

Research has shown the 18 degree rule holds true for countries nearer to the equator however, for countries in the Northern Hemisphere this simply is impracticle.

[Imran.]

Blogger,did the hizbul ulema(although deobandi,but hanafi regardless) not actually perform lengthy mushahida(over months) to determine exact subh e sadiq quite some time ago.

Isn't it what alot of birmingham timetables are based upon,instead of calculated and assumed upon18 degree rule that alot are assuming to be true dawn(when it could be false dawn too)?

[blogger]

Yes, a group of Blackburn based scholars carried out roughly a year's worth of observations but I'm not sure what the results were and how they are being used currently. I do know that there was a meeting convened under the name of London Salaat Timetable Unification Committee where the major mosques participated agreeing on a timetable for Ramzan.

[blogger]

 Qadri-Jilani, on 03 August 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

There are a group of deobandis in the UK who have made observations for over a year and they found that their observations concur with -18 degrees throughout the year. This is the opinion of all the astronomical bodies and organisations from all over the world

Hizbul Ulema (Deobandi) research contradicts this. They have found that fixed degrees or fixed time formulas are inadequate and do not reflect Subah Saadiq accuratly. The Hizbul Ulema timetable differs grately from the 18 degree rule whereby Sehri finishes over an hour later. Their research recommends Mushahadah (observation):
Hizbul Ulema Research

 Qadri-Jilani, on 03 August 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

This is the opinion of all the astronomical bodies and organisations from all over the world

Not sure about that, extensive research carried out by the moonsighting.com team (approx. 250 predominantly Muslim astronomers) has concluded that the fixed degree calculations are not appropriate. Their 10 yr global research has lead to a latitude/seasonal formula which was confirmed independently by Pakistani scientists:
Ghaur Talab


moonsighting.com timetable for London this Ramzan (1432/2011) is as follows (Fajr is roughly an hr later than timetables following the 18 degree rule):
 LONDON 1.TXT (2.27K)
Number of downloads: 28

[Brother_UK]

As'Salaamualaikum

I have found an online astronomical twilight calculator for wherever you are in the world..

Please find attached a PDF of times for London

Attached File(s)

•  Rise_Set.pdf (14.09K)
  Number of downloads: 39

[Qadri-Jilani]

Brothers, flexibility can be allowed in matters where there is no nass, but where Allah and His Messenger explicitly state something there is no room for ijtihad (la ijtihada fi mawrid al-nass). You cannot apply tools of yusr/sahl (ease) here. The matter of Subh Sadiq is explicitly mentioned in Qur'an Karim. In fact the Ulama say that caution (ihtiyat) should be exercised when it comes to closing the fast so one should close earlier rather than later when in any kind of doubt (as otherwise the fast itself is in threat). Some Saudi scholars suggest closing the fast at 18.5 or 19 degrees to ensure that no person is eating/drinking once the fast closes. Simply as a matter if precaution people should be closing the fast at -18 degrees and not -15 or -12.

All Imams of jurisprudence agree on the time of Fajr and in terms of calculating the time for Fajr, the prominent Imams agree that it occurs when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon. This is why I urge people not to base their judgements on mere conjecture but to leave the matter to the experts.

The first twilight in the morning is astronomical twilight and this is what Subh Sadiq is, where the first burst of light appears and begins begins to spread across the horizon.

Astronomical twilight is: the time that a slight light is seen on the horizon, large items are visible but
small details are not easily distinguishable. Large stars are visible in the sky at this time.

This fits the description in the authentic Hadith:

‘We, the Muslim women would attend the morning prayer behind the Prophet with our bodies covered in sheets.
After the prayer, when we would return home, due to the darkness we could not recognise each other.’ (al-Bukhari, al-Tirmidhi, Muwatta Imam Malik)

Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani writes: ‘due to the darkness we could not recognise each other’ means, due to the
darkness they could distinguish the form of a body but not recognise whether it was Khadija or Zainab. (Fath-ul-Bari
v.2, p.22).

(In this Hadith the word "al Ghalas" is translated by expert of the Arabic language (lexicographer) as "the last
part of the darkness of the night which is joined to the first light of the day." (Lisanul Arab / Majma’ul Bahar, vol 4, p52).

I posted a picture above that shows very well what subh sadiq looks like.

Apart from a the odd claimed observations (which I will deal with below) there is nothing in the scientific community that suggests astronomical twilight occurs at different angles depending on latitude/longitude or seasonal changes.

The Deobandi group Hizb-ul-Ulama did some observations in 1987 which seems to contradict the scientific information so I decided to look into it. In summary, the rest of the Deobandi community has rejected their claims and regarded as an outcast in this matter. Mufti Taqi Usmani and a whole host of other Deobandis rejected their claims to the extent that some people call it a complete farce. Mufti Taqi Usmani and all other Deobandis state -18 degrees for all places including the UK. The first point to note is that Blackburn has very high light pollution making it virtually impossible to sight the beginning of subh sadiq. The second issue is that Hizb-ul-Ulama only conducted sightings a couple of times a months but when we see their timetabled results in full they actually contradict their own methodology and claimed sightings on the basis of tallying up the times between two different sighting dates/aqrab-ul-ayyam. Why are they doing this when an actual sighting has been made? It does not make sense. What are the timings actually based on?

A number of people have asked to speak to hizb-ul-ulama and raise a number of questions about their timetable but they refuse to speak to anyone. You can find further information of Deobandi forums on the internet (such as sunniforum).

Furthermore another group of Deobandis have since made their own observations (much better positioned to do so) and found that subh sadiq occurs at -18 degrees at every instance and the times of Hizb-ul-Ulama are not correct.

In any case, do you think the Jamat in Birmingham have even heard of Hizb-ul-Ulama? Also remember that Hizb-ul-Ulama do not follow any kind of systematic pattern for twilight i.e. 15 or 12 but state that none of these figures work and subh sadiq occurs in a much more arbitrary way. The Jamat in Birmingham and to be fair it's not just them but many other masajid in the UK are using the principle of 15 degrees and sometimes 12 degrees so it has no resemblance to Hizb-ul-Ulama times. I would say more Masajid this year round are closing suhur at -15 degrees when last year these same masajid were closing the fast at -18 degrees. They have given no reason why they have chosen 15 degrees and 12 degrees (as a small number of masajid are doing).

[blogger]

 Qadri-Jilani, on 06 August 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

All Imams of jurisprudence agree on the time of Fajr and in terms of calculating the time for Fajr, the prominent Imams agree that it occurs when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon. This is why I urge people not to base their judgements on mere conjecture but to leave the matter to the experts.

Did the Imams specify what to do in May, June and July? Did they even acknowledge that the sun never did go below 18 degrees in these months? Like you say shouldn't we just follow the 'experts', why is there such a desperate need to work out a timetable for next year?

 Qadri-Jilani, on 06 August 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

The first twilight in the morning is astronomical twilight and this is what Subh Sadiq is, where the first burst of light appears and begins begins to spread across the horizon.

Astronomical twilight is: the time that a slight light is seen on the horizon, large items are visible but
small details are not easily distinguishable. Large stars are visible in the sky at this time.

I beg to differ, Subh Sadiq occurs when the human eye can distinguish the initial light spreading horizontally. Scientifically you may be correct but the Shariah states that the common man should be able to determine Subh Saqdiq. I know that I for one would struggle to identify the moment astronomical twilight occuurs.

 Qadri-Jilani, on 06 August 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

This fits the description in the authentic Hadith:

‘We, the Muslim women would attend the morning prayer behind the Prophet with our bodies covered in sheets.
After the prayer, when we would return home, due to the darkness we could not recognise each other.’ (al-Bukhari, al-Tirmidhi, Muwatta Imam Malik)

Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani writes: ‘due to the darkness we could not recognise each other’ means, due to the
darkness they could distinguish the form of a body but not recognise whether it was Khadija or Zainab. (Fath-ul-Bari
v.2, p.22).

(In this Hadith the word "al Ghalas" is translated by expert of the Arabic language (lexicographer) as "the last
part of the darkness of the night which is joined to the first light of the day." (Lisanul Arab / Majma’ul Bahar, vol 4, p52).

I posted a picture above that shows very well what subh sadiq looks like.

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that it is considerably dark at the time of Subh Sadiq?

 Qadri-Jilani, on 06 August 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

Apart from a the odd claimed observations (which I will deal with below) there is nothing in the scientific community that suggests astronomical twilight occurs at different angles depending on latitude/longitude or seasonal changes.

No one refutes the uundeniable scientific fact that astronomical twilight occurs at 18 degrees. But there are muslim scientists worldwide who do reject the idea of astronomical twilight satisfying the shariah conditions of Subh Sadiq. What are your thoughts on the moonsighting.com 10yr research (verified by Pakistani scientists)? they concur that subh sadiq (not astronomical twilight) does depend on the latitude and the season of the sun.

[Faisal]

Brother Qadri Jilani makes me laugh. He tries so hard to attribute every negativity to the “Birmingham Jamaat“. He should be aware The Amir e Millat Masjid where the flagship Khatme Nabuwwat Conference is held does not follow the criteria he is promoting. Sehri ends around 3.48am on their calendar.

When it comes to other issues you quickly dismiss it saying Ala Hazrat can make a mistake, he was good for his time but not applicable now. When people are asking for the scholars of today to do research in the UK, why are you trying to stand in the way?

The simple fact is that the fixed 18° rule is not applicable in the UK. All year round you‘ve not used the prayer timetable based on 18° calculation and when it comes to Ramadan suddenly you have become vocal. Before the discussion used to be on Saudis wrong moon sighting and now its the prayer times.

Read the following on Fajr & Isha time: http://www.moonsight.../faq_pt.html#F2

[Brother_UK]

If you have the means of investigation through such resources as the Observatory etc. Then why is there so much drama.. The information is there as to when twilight is, follow it.

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/websurf/

[blogger]

 Brother_UK, on 07 August 2011 - 02:33 AM, said:

If you have the means of investigation through such resources as the Observatory etc. Then why is there so much drama.. The information is there as to when twilight is, follow it.

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/websurf/

Brother to clarify, everyone is agreed on when astronomical twilight occurs. The question is does this fulfil the Shariah conditons where a common man would be able to observe the phenomenon. Many a scientist Muslim or Non-Muslim would say no.

Also, if Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih's guidance is to be followed then why not continue next year throughout the months of May, June and July and all the others?

[Brother_UK]

A common man would be able to observe it if it were not for light pollution and the vast array of buildings blocking our view of the horizon..

[blogger]

 Brother_UK, on 07 August 2011 - 03:49 AM, said:

A common man would be able to observe it if it were not for light pollution and the vast array of buildings blocking our view of the horizon..

May I ask, how you came to this conclusion? What do you suggest we do in May/June/July 2012?

Dr Omar Afzal says "If some Ulama have lately accepted the astronomical twilight (18°) as limits of Fajr and Isha, because of their cautious attitude, and limited knowledge of physical realities we do not have to close our eyes, and reject very strong arguments which point in the other direction."

Attached File(s)

•  omar-afzal_Fajr Isha Obser June 05.doc (71K)
  Number of downloads: 28
•  omar-afzal_Fajr and Ish2.doc (25K)
  Number of downloads: 26

[Brother_UK]

look at the picture brother Qadri Jilani posted, there are no buldings and no street lights or any light for that matter to pollute the view, thus making the twilight clearly visible..

[Qadri-Jilani]

Subh Sadiq occurs when the sun is -18 degrees (astronomical twilight) and this light is observable on the sky (see the picture I posted earlier).

When Muslim astronomers pointed out that it occurs at -18 degrees it was not merely based on mathematical calculations but actual observations. Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan, for example, states that he has personally observed subh sadiq for years and years in different seasons and found that it occurs at -18 degrees every time. The point being emphasised is that he actually observed it (mushahada). The human eye can distinguish it.

The first twilight or dawn, which is what we are talking about according to all major scientists/astronomers including those in the UK state that it occurs at -18 degrees. Here is the definition of dawn:

Dawn is the time that marks the beginning of the twilight before sunrise. It is recognized by the presence of weak sunlight, while the sun itself is still below the horizon. Dawn should not be confused with sunrise, which is the moment when the leading edge of the sun itself appears above the horizon.

The duration of the twilight period between dawn and sunrise varies greatly depending on the observer's latitude, from a few minutes in equatorial regions to many hours in polar regions. Dawn may easily be determined by observing a thread. When the color of a thread can be determined, changing from black to the thread's distinctive color, the 'crack of dawn' has occurred. This same measure of ambient light can be used to determine, conversely, the instant of dusk.

Astronomical dawn:
the moment after which the sky is no longer completely dark; formally defined as the time at which the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon in the morning.

The first presence of light on the sky that continues to spread is what subh sadiq is defined as in the fiqh texts so that's what we are looking for.

In modern urban cities/towns the light pollution is quite extensive so we cannot easily observe subh sadiq/first dawn hence in many parts of the UK it cannot be seen with the naked eye.

Blogger, what I have been repeating from the outset is that we are talking about THIS year in which astronomical twilight occurs so there is no issue in following the guidance and fatwas given over the centuries by our Ulama. In forthcoming years we will have the problem of persistent twilight where the sun does not go 18 degrees below the horizon but that's a different matter and Ala Hazrat as well as other Ulama have provided guidance on what to do when this happens. This issue has been discussed by very early fuqaha (so no problem in following their guidance when it happens) but this is not an issue for this year which is why the matter is so upsetting. There should be no ikhtilaf this year. For the coming years there are a couple of solutions the fuqaha have provided but I fear if there is no agreement this year the ikhtilaf will be exacerbated next year.

It has nothing to do with Jamats. I spoke out strongly when the Birmingham Mosques were doing Ramadan and Eid on the wrong day but alhamdulillah that problem no longer exists and Ramadan and Eid of all Sunnis occurs at the same time now (by the way there are Ulama in Birmingham who disagree with decision of the Jamat on fajr time). This is also upsetting because we have had ittifaq in one area but ikhtilaf has opened in another area. If you see my post above I did say that it's not only the Birmingham Jamat but I would say it seems that more masajid in different parts of the UK are doing Subh Sadiq incorrectly as opposed to those following some kind of fiqhi guideline.

Why were their timetables last year based on -18 degrees and this year on something else (either -15 or -12)?

The decision of these Mosques is not based on fiqhi or astronomical guidelines as none of them have provided it. Most of them have not heard of the hizb-ul-ulama or moonsighting.com timings. I've not checked recently what moonsighting.com has said on the matter but I know previously they were depending on the information provided by hizb-ul-ulama and I have already mentioned how that has been discredited. In any case I would guess that they are not adhering to any kind of systematic formula in terms of fixing either 15 or 12 degrees but instead their timings will be arbitrary and will be tallying up the times between different claimed observations. Like I said, if you like the idea of this then compare that to any of our Sunni masajid not adhering to -18 degrees and you will find that they are not using a hizb-ul-ulama or moonisighting.com timetable but are adhering to fixed degrees, either -15 degrees or -12 degrees as a minority have done. So that's a contradiction.

I can tell with yaqeen that one large masjid in the UK did not consider any fiqhi or scientific rules but they had a meeting with Mosques in which the central Masjid said our timetable will be according to -18 degrees (as it has been every year) and the other said we are devising our timetable according -12 degrees...so they decided to meet half way in the middle and all parties present decided on -15 degrees!

They are doing deals with these matters like it's a market place. I'm being serious, this is how many of the decisions have been made. No consideration of Islamic law has been given but committees and organisations simply deciding on what suits them best.

[blogger]

 Qadri-Jilani, on 07 August 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

Subh Sadiq occurs when the sun is -18 degrees (astronomical twilight) and this light is observable on the sky (see the picture I posted earlier).

When Muslim astronomers pointed out that it occurs at -18 degrees it was not merely based on mathematical calculations but actual observations.

There are many Muslim astronomers who disagree. What do you have to say about the research carried out by Dr Omar Afzal (attached previously) and the conclusion of Dr Shaukat and the moonsighting.com team (timetable for London attahced previously) which differs with your viewpoint?

The dismissal of others, claiming that others have no basis, little substance or are unaware of the scientific facts disappoints me. Maybe, the BMF should have been involved in the 'Unified Islamic Timetable For London' meetings which have been taking place over the last year where scientific and shariah evidences were considered extensively.

A list of major mosques in London, not following the 18 degree rule:

Islamic Cultural Centre - Regent's Park
East London Mosque - Whitechapel
Husseini Islamic Centre (KSIMC) - Stanmore
Jamia Masjid Ghausia (WIFA) - Walthamstow (Lea Bridge Rd)
Brick Lane Jamme Masjid - Aldgate
Greenwich Islamic Centre - Plumstead
Hounslow Jamia Masjid - Hounslow
Suleymaniye Mosque - Dalston

[Qadri-Jilani]

'Unified Islamic Timetable For London'

This actually proves my point. The above announcement states that the timetable is based on Hizb-ul-Ulama (Blackburn) and I have already pointed out that their timetable is not credible. It also confirms my presumption that moonsighting.com are using the work of hizb-ul-ulama and moonsighting.com is where much of the hizb-ul-ulama work has been promoted.

The General Announcement is actually quite misleading and I think this is why you have been confused too because it mentions (although not clearly explained what they want to say) that this method suits countries with a latitude above 48 degrees, however, the issue of high latitude is only problematic in the days where there is persistent twilight hence the inability to to devise timetables on -18 degrees. In August we do not face such a problem as mentioned earlier yet they seem to suggest the problem exists all year round.

I have not yet seen what Dr Afzal has said but what you should note is that astronomical twilight is of interest to Muslims because of our worship but it is also of interest to non-Muslims, simply as a scientific matter, with people interested in astronomy and observing the sky taking special interest. 48° N latitude and above affects central and northern Europe as well as the north of the USA (e.g. Washington, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota), this would mean that all these scientists, geographers, physicists and astronomers have defined astronomical twilight/dawn incorrectly (as occurring at -18 degrees) so it's not wise to take odd statement over pretty much entire scientific community on this issue.

You can see precisely which countries are affected here: http://www.flashimap...coordinate_map/

In any case the Sunni Masajid not basing subh sadiq on -18 degrees are not following Hizb-ul-Ulama/moonsighting.com. They must first define a basis on which a discussion can take place.

The BMF did rather well in uniting everyone on moonsighting and the commencement of Islamic months but I don't think it was really expected that people would start differing about Fajr time, after all last year the timetables were based on -18 degrees. I do not have any kind of animosity towards anyone and this issue will be solved by dialogue around the table, whether the BMF takes the initiative or anyone else.