[piara-madinah]

DS bhai 100% right ub ulmah ko agye ana cahiyee muftion ko mil ker faislha kerna cahiyee ub in ka hal kiya hay or in per fatwa deen warna yeh baat bigerty chali jye gi.

ub janab raza sahub , muafiker e islam or sheikh ul islam etc kay tytels waloon ko alims muftion say mil ker is bary fatwa lena cahiyee kay jo pir sahub ko kafir boly us kay eman kis derjha ka hay.

lugta hay un ko tujdeed e eman or tujdeed e nikah ki ashad zarorat hay.

[AhmadAli]

From What I heard from the Murid of Mufti Akhtar Raza Khan حفظه الل is that Irfan Shah Masha'adi or who ever it was Put fatwa e Kufar on one of the Book of Pir Karam Shah 'Alaihi Rahmah not on them! WAllahu Alam!!!

[Imran.]

 AhmadAli, on 08 August 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

Put fatwa e Kufar on one of the Book of Pir Karam Shah 'Alaihi Rahmah not on them!

So the book is a kaafir too now, is it?

[AhmadAli]

"So the book is a kaafir too now, is it?"



SO you are saying they(Irfan Shah Masha'adi) have called them a "Kaafir"! WAllahu alaam! The thing with the book I mention before, I will once again get that confirmed 100%, May be I misunderstood it Dear!

[qadrimuslim]

 AhmadAli, on 08 August 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

From What I heard from the Murid of Mufti Akhtar Raza Khan حفظه الل is that Irfan Shah Masha'adi or who ever it was Put fatwa e Kufar on one of the Book of Pir Karam Shah 'Alaihi Rahmah not on them! WAllahu Alam!!!

This is the sort of apologetic and smart way that some people have been twisting out of this embarrassing mess and trying to fool people that they committed no such Takfir but only talked 'on the topic'.

1) This Irfan Shah group (Firqa Takfiriyya) first spoke against Pir Karam Shah (RA) - and then produced books of his kufr and rejected claims that he did Ruju'.

2) They declared Pir Karam Shah (RA) was the same as Salman Taseer who also defended a Gustakh e Rasool and declared Muslims should not have read his Janaza (same as Salman Taseer), and they expressed disgust that his URS is still being held.

3) Then abusing the term "Fikr e Raza" they used foul language against him and confirmed his kufr in public. After being challenged and confronted they used the following strange twisted logic and contradictory attempt at a copout -

Quote

"We have asked Abid Dajjali and Irfan Shah al-Takfiri and they don't openly declare Karam Shah was a Kafir but Karam Shah committed Kufr and considered Qasim Nanotwi a Muslim so according to Ala Hazrat's (RA) fatwa he is a Kafir"

4) Now they have gone through the books on 1 hour 45 minute video proving he died as a Kafir (video is available on youtube)

Quote

"whoever doubts the Kufr of Pir Karam Shah is also a Kafir"

. and:

Quote

"his Kufr is the same as the Kufr of Rashid Gangohi"

5) The masses of Sunni Muslims, including staunch Ulama of the Barelvi Madaris, are disgusted by this behaviour. Even though they disagreed with Pir Karam Shah (RA) on his stance with deobandis they still say that "through his Hikmat and soft approach he managed to do a great deal of work for Ahle Sunnat" and that the Ulama should be respected.

6) Mufakkir e Islam was among the few who raised this issue of disgusting Takfir of our buzurg and blanket Takfir of other sects many years ago, he named them "Firqa Takfiriyya", and even mentioned their evil in Zubdah tu Tahqeeq. This is just one of the reasons they started a witch-hunt against the Sayyid.

7) YaNabi has fought this message of hatred for many years. The majority of the masses and the Ulama agree with us. What puzzles me the most is that until just yesterday, a few of Pir Karam Shah (RA)'s followers and some Jamia al Karam lot (Misbahi etc) actually sat with Irfan Shah al-Takfiri! Time for them to wake up or be counted among the Kafirs!

[AhmadAli]

let me explain to you, Pir Karam Shah didn't agree on the fatwa of kufr on devbandies. He didn't sign the book 'Aala Hazrat wrote, but I heard Pir Karam Shah agreed n signed later on. WAllahu alim
But to me I am not concerned any more, I have been told not to get into this issue, May Allah 'Azzawajjal forgive us and give us the ability to sit with Ahl e haq Ulema e Kiraam Ameen Bijahi Nabyil Ameen SalAllahu alahi wasallam,

[qadrimuslim]

 AhmadAli, on 09 August 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

let me explain to you, Pir Karam Shah didn't agree on the fatwa of kufr on devbandies. He didn't sign the book 'Aala Hazrat wrote, but I heard Pir Karam Shah agreed n signed later on. WAllahu alim

Quote

1) This Irfan Shah group (Firqa Takfiriyya) first spoke against Pir Karam Shah (RA) - and then produced books of his kufr and rejected claims that he did Ruju'.

[blogger]

 AhmadAli, on 09 August 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

let me explain to you, Pir Karam Shah didn't agree on the fatwa of kufr on devbandies. He didn't sign the book 'Aala Hazrat wrote, but I heard Pir Karam Shah agreed n signed later on. WAllahu alim
But to me I am not concerned any more, I have been told not to get into this issue, May Allah 'Azzawajjal forgive us and give us the ability to sit with Ahl e haq Ulema e Kiraam Ameen Bijahi Nabyil Ameen SalAllahu alahi wasallam,

Please read Zia-un-Nabi and then tell me whether Pir Karam Shah Rehmatullah Alaih had the same aqeedah as Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih.

So what if he didn't sign! just because someone doesn't speak out against another person it doesn't mean they agree with them (at the same time it doesn't mean they disagree with someone who did speak out). The questions you'll be asked in the grave will not concern deobandis or wahabis, as long you have the correct faith in Allah and our Beloved Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam (which will automatically indicate your allegiance anyway) nothing else really matters. You can't gague a person's faith by counting the words spoken out against another group however, a person's faith can only increase everytime the words of Allah and his beloved Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam are mentioned (care to count the words of Pir Karam Shah Rematullah Alaih?).

I'd rather engage my heart listening/singing the sweet melody of praise rather than cause it distress with the noise of deviance. Some scholars (amongst them Khalifa's of Ala Hazrat) adopted this same philosophy bringing many followers in-line with the aqeedah of Ala Hazrat when before they were uninclined. Few others like Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri have also been charged with the same lame offence of not speaking out against deviant groups thus copping the takfiri treatment. Honestly, what twisted logic? when this is fed to the masses it becomes a serious problem.

why on earth drag this out so many years later after the passing away of Pir Karam Shah Saheb, why now all of a sudden?

[qadrimuslim]

 blogger, on 10 August 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

why on earth drag this out so many years later after the passing away of Pir Karam Shah Saheb, why now all of a sudden?

Its called opportunism. Irfan Shah Takfiri's best export.

If you look at the "Pir Karam Shah ka Ruju" interview with Syed Tabasum Bukhari by Abid Dajjali, Bukhari Sahib clearly says that his original complaint was lodged in 1997 but nobody gave it any notice. Pir Karam Shah (RA) was always hailed for his work and was loved by the people.

It was only more recently that people approached Bukhari Sahib looking for an excuse to attack Pir Karam Shah (RA). He mentions that Irfan Shah Takfiri met him, endorsed him and praised him for his attack on Pir Karam Shah (RA).

The point being made is that since 1997 nobody gave any value to the takfir on Pir Karam Shah (RA), but nowadays the Kufr ki Factory representative Abid Dajjali needed more material so approached Syed Tabasum Bukhari with a video camera.

I bet Bukhari Sahib is now wondering why he ever got involved in this, because he has obviously been sucked into something much nastier and dirtier than he bargained for.

[Desert-Sheikh]

 AhmadAli, on 09 August 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

let me explain to you, Pir Karam Shah didn't agree on the fatwa of kufr on devbandies. He didn't sign the book 'Aala Hazrat wrote, but I heard Pir Karam Shah agreed n signed later on. WAllahu alim
But to me I am not concerned any more, I have been told not to get into this issue, May Allah 'Azzawajjal forgive us and give us the ability to sit with Ahl e haq Ulema e Kiraam Ameen Bijahi Nabyil Ameen SalAllahu alahi wasallam,

Are you explaining it on Irfan Shah & Co's behalf?

If it doesn't concern you then it's none of your business who signed it or not. I never signed it, does it make me Kafir? My mother even doesn't know if such fatwa exists, let alone agreeing or signing....Kafir?

It's a very fragile matter, some one from Ala Hazrat's family needs to adress the issue. If they don't come forward now, they will be responsible for the consequences. If Sunni's of Pakistan openly start criticizing this Fatwa (due its wrong interpretations and implementations), in next 50 years, no one will even remember who is Ala Hazrat.

Phir na kehna humein khabar na huwi.....

[qadrimuslim]

 Desert-Sheikh, on 10 August 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

Are you explaining it on Irfan Shah & Co's behalf?

If it doesn't concern you then it's none of your business who signed it or not. I never signed it, does it make me Kafir? My mother even doesn't know if such fatwa exists, let alone agreeing or signing....Kafir?

It's a very fragile matter, some one from Ala Hazrat's family needs to adress the issue. If they don't come forward now, they will be responsible for the consequences. If Sunni's of Pakistan openly start criticizing this Fatwa (due its wrong interpretations and implementations), in next 50 years, no one will even remember who is Ala Hazrat.

Phir na kehna humein khabar na huwi.....

Excellent post by brother DS.

These takfiris think : they are the only SUNNIS left + All other sects are KAFIR = They are the only MUSLIMS left and everyone else is KAFIR

If this isn't khwarjiyyat, then nothing out there can be.

I have had a quick look on the propaganda videos sponsored by Irfan Shah Takfiri camp and could probably compile a list of all the senior Ulama they have slandered as Shia or Kafir.

But it seems their propaganda is turning people against them. Mashallah, Muslims are not stupid and can see this dirty group for what they really are. Irfan Shah Takfiri has now had the spotlight turned on himself for the kufr he spoke in some of his speeches.

How does the saying go? Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house yourself!

[Qadri-Jilani]

I think barelwism is in a crises and there are concerns it will implode.

Look at this new debate between two students of the same teacher, most people present are connected to Bandyal Shareef. There are iconic Ulama on either side of the debate, three of those present are among the biggest names we have (Allama Abdul Haqq Sahib, Allama Ashraf Silawi, Allama Muhammad Shareef Rizvi - in alphabetical order):

https://www.youtube....h?v=th8PxjaNA1I

[Qadri-Jilani]

[could not post three videos in one post]:

Here is Molana Saeed Asad calling Pir Naseeruddin Shah Sahib a wahabi and a shia:

https://www.youtube....h?v=ahhvu6GHb3I
a couple of more things are said at the end of the naat) - comments show how he has angered mureeds of Pir Naseeruddin Sahib.

Yet the same Molana Saeed Asad backs up Allama Ashraf Silawi on the issue of the beloved Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) receiving nabuwwa at the age of 40, for which many barelwi Ulama have said Allama Ashraf Sialwi Sahib is no longer a Sunni:



This is just a sample of the very latest that has occured just before Ramadan Sharif, otherwise could go on forever.

[Mudassar-Rana]

br QJ what is common about these type of munazira's is that it is merely entertainment for the religious crowd. Just like ordinary folk in Pakistan would go to see some animals fight or watch a stage show etc. If it really was an intellectual discussion do you think it would be allowed for people just to stand up and start taking pics? How stupid can you get.

Barelvism isnt in crises - its barelvi's who are in crises. They've just realised it wasnt that the glass is half full or half empty no there is nothing in the glass at all. So the guns turned on each other. All who take part in this tarantino takfir troupe are equally reprehensible and sinful. They are not doing any service to habib allah a.s because after all that was the badge of honour that barelvi's wore with pride. Our ishq e risaalat was legendary - but these guys have exposed it.

https://www.youtube....h?v=Oa6EcW2NOsk

[4dvti]

Asalamu Alaikum dear brothers.

First of all Ramadhan Kareem to you all. I hope everyone is in the best of health and spirituality insha ALLAH.

With regards to this topic, it is indeed extremely sad to see people trying to tarnish the reputation of such great Aulia ALLAH as Hazoor Zia Ul Ummat Justice Pir Muhammad Karam Shah Al-Azhari (RA). He is, without a doubt, one of the greatest visionaries and spiritual masters of the 20th century and his works and achievements for the sake of ALLAH swt and Sayiduna Muhammad Salallahu Alaihi Wasalam are unparalleled.

In terms of a response to those who do inappropriate and unjustifiable takfir, I am of the opinion that we let them do as they please and leave it to ALLAH swt. Any person with a sound mind and temperament will know who is right and who is wrong. I refer everyone to these two clips, the first courtesy of Tariq Gift Centre and recorded during the Annual Urs of Hazoor Zia Ul Ummah (RA) at Jamia AL-Karam, UK:




Secondly, I refer you to 3:25:00 in this recording: please watch the entire video at your leisure to take real benefit.





The aim of my response is not an attack or anyone. However I feel that it is my duty, as a ghulam of the great Auliah, to portray what is the truth and reconcile the hearts of those who may have been in doubt after these allegations.

MaSalaam.