[qadrimuslim]

Quote

I rest my case,that is exactly the brelvi mindset i'm against.

PS If you want people to stop people having a go at extreme brelvi's then you claimants to the "true" brelwiyat better get your fingers out of your ears and openly condemn and alienate this "minority" otherwise you will always be painted with the same brush, that being rather narrowminded or your silence will give the impression that you are a party to the actions of some bad apples(as you claim).

I agree with brother Imran here

Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza (RA) was an Imam and Mujadid of Ahlus Sunnah. Many non-Indian Ulama have called him the Abu Hanifa of his time, The Imam of al-Hind and al-Sind, but have also criticized him for his strictness, we take it all on board.

But he was not the SOLE Imam of Ahlus Sunnah and Ahlus Sunnah is NOT confined to his teachings. Pir Mehr Ali Shah (RA) was another Imam who lived at the same time. We do not see any maslak of Golra Shareef. The list could go on.

Some people today have (i) taken this 'maslak' too far and managed to alienate themselves and gone back 100 years (ii) taken the words of Imam Raza (RA) to their extreme limit and used them as missile launchers to attack Muslims, Sunni or otherwise. If you look at their track record you will see that they even reject ALL Arab Ulama who don't do takfir of deobandis!! Madness!!

Yet, I agree with blogger that there is a mass majority of Sunnis who identify as Barelvi and are not extreme in their "Barelviat". But as with any silent majority we need to wake up and condemn the extremists. I mentioned this in the now locked Birmingham Sunni Conference thread. None of the Ulama spoke out against this evil - and this was supposed to be a "Sunni Conference" representing many of our Barelvi Ulama. Its as though they are scared to reprimand their own bad apples.

[qadrimuslim]

 blogger, on 14 July 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Come on guys are you serious? have some balance please ... programmes on the birth of Hazrat Ali Radiallahu Anhu were aired, on the blessed Panjatan Paak, Karbala and many others. Why do you keep saying that the Ahle Bayt are not being given their due?

It's dissapointing to see how you can accuse others so easily of not giving the Ahle Bayt their due. There are scholars offspring of the Ahle Bayt and others mureeds of Syeds and others who give their time and effort to appear on TV and rest assured they give the utmost respect, love and reverance to the Ahle Bayt.

Please provide constructive suggestions as to what more could be done to convinve you that the Ahle Bayt are given their due on the Sunni TV channels.

Br Blogger, I hope you are not disgruntled by the number of replies to you, as this is another one. We are all one big family and we are brothers inshallah.

I admire your sincerity but I feel you are being a touch naive about these matters

I have watched these TV programmes, and it is mainly one specific channel that had great potential but managed to be sucked into an agenda that I doubt the administration even comprehends.

Every single last one of the programmes regarding Sahaba or Ahle Bayt are used as a platform to attack the Shia TV channels and they have locked themselves in a viscious cycle. Most people I know have stopped watching these programmes because we dont actually hear much fazail of Ahle Bayt. My observations:

1 - In programmes about Ahle Bayt or Panjtan Paak they always end up bringing up the Sahaba (RA) in some sort of competition. The Ulama have never done this before and advised against it, especially in public. The message this sends out is that the Sahaba (RA) belong to the Sunnis and Ahle Bayt belong to the Shia! This is a massive tragedy.

2 - When Shia ring in, the presenters and guests always ending up refuting the Shia throughout the whole programme - ie playing into the hands of the Shia propagandists whose only intention is to ruin the programme.

3 - While refuting the Shia, they strip away fazail of the Ahle Bayt bit by bit by bit, not realising that the fazail they are refuting are fazail found in Sunni madhab. Many of the guests have even managed to degrade the Ahle Bayt when taken to extremes - I wont give examples in this thread.

4 - Is it any wonder that many people are suggesting that this one channel has nasibi tendencies? Because many of the guests are inclined this way? As soon as they invite proper Sunnis who come on to praise the Ahle Bayt and not get into Shia mess, they have people deliberately ringing in asking why Tafzilis are on the panel!

5 - Much of it is staged and looks like a badly planned circus fair. They need to make some rules about their programmes and ban any questions that could divert the programme.

I think we need a seperate thread for this topic.

[blogger]

 qadrimuslim, on 14 July 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

We are all one big family and we are brothers inshallah.

I share the same sentiment as you, may I urge you to send a polite email to Ummah Channel highlighting your concerns. Currently, there is a mentality of Us vs Them but WE need to come together to get rid of this cancerous attitude eating up our precious time and effort.

[Brother_MGS]

This whole takfir/fitna scene is getting boring. There are plenty of Ulema who are eating of fitna, whole conferences are being held to create more fitna. The funny thing is, it is being battled out here in the UK. The beauty of the Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat is that it offers balance, On one hand we love, respect and pay homage to the Ahle Bayt of RasoolAllah(SAW) and on the other hand we pay love, respect and homage to the Sahaba of our Beloved Prophet(SAW). Sayyidina Siddique Akbar(RA) was that Sahabi-e-Rasool who accompanied the Prophet(SAW) on the night of Hijrat, who made all arrangements for the journey. Moula Murtaza Sher-e-Khuda(RA) was that Sahabi-e-Rasool that RasoolAllah(SAW) told to sleep in their bed and return all goods and property to all owners, where Sher-e-Khuda(RA) woke up in the morning and recalled having the best sleep they have ever had, who recieved the garentee of Allah's Rasool(SAW) that he will awake in the morning and will remain safe.

The uniqueness of RasoolAllah(SAW) is that they themselves showed us the status of their beloved Aal and Sahab. On one side Sayyidina Siddique Akbar(RA) is Afzlul Bashr on the other side Sayyidina Ali Al Murtaza(RA) is Mushkil Kusha. Who are we to belittle one to make the other look better, that in itself is going against the true meaning of our Aqeedah. Our Aqeedah defends the status of Abu Bakr(RA) in the face of Shia and on the other hand defends the status of Ali(RA) against attacks from Najdi formed groups. Putting doubt on either two companions is putting doubt into the judgements and status RasooAllah(SAW) showed to his Sahaab and Aal.

Going back to the topic, the people who have done takfir on Zia Ul Ummat(ra) are the biggest fitna creators within Sunni Islam. The Aqeedah of the Ahle Sunnat is bigger than the subcontinent, there seems to be wide spread unity amongst Sunni scholars from the Arab world and horn of Africa because they have fought the hardest battles in keeping Sunnis as Sunnis and not astraying into the Najdi path.

Zia ul Ummat's Dhia ul Quran and excellency as a judge and servant of Pakistan speaks volumes about his Ilm levels in both Islam and the world. Everybody who isn't blinded by Jahil Ulema knows his status, it is his Madrassa Campus in Nottingham that is eventually going to be the forefront in keeping future generations in this country on the path of the Ahle Sunnat.

Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmed Raza(ra) was a Mujaddid in how he defended the Ahle Sunnat against Najdi created groups, who showed phenominal love for RasoolAllah(SAW) through his poetry as he himself said 'Main Gadah houn Apneh Rasool ka'. But then again there was another Mujaddid of that era that defended the finality of RasoolAllah(SAW) for the benefit of all of Islam. Who when in Makkah Sharif was told by Haji Imdadullah Makki(ra) that a fitna is about to rise in Hind, go back asap to defend the truth. Who was blessed enough to have been given a message by RasoolAllah(SAW) to go and defend their finality!.

Maslak-e-Ala Hazrat narrows this Aqeedah, there have been countless scholars all over the world on our Aqeedah. Like ive said before that term to me narrows our aqeedah of the Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat.

If people are going to sit in fitna conferences by the Bradford Ulema(Mafia) than more fool them. I could understand their influence over jahil people in Pakistan but in this country Zia Ul Ummats work speaks for itself. It is about time these fitna creating Ulema were distanced far away from our Aqeedah. Islam is too big for this this fitna, such Ulema are not equipped for the battles of Muslims in the 21st century.We need guidance not just on Aqeedah but also on how to defend our beliefs against the kafir and how to defend our Aqeedah against other sects.

Their are bigger fish to fry than these stupid money grabbing Mullah's who have nothing better to do than sit on tv chat shows and hold conferences to massage their egos and establish their own status.

They call Dr Tahir Ul Qadri a kafir yet he's sitting in western press conferences, showing the values of Islam, hes even done a press conference in New York saying it is permissable for Muslims to defend themselves against invading western forces. Hes sitting on the world stage and is trying to take Islam and this Aqeedah with him. Shaykhs Nanowy and Yaqoubi have a bigger following of Pakistani youth than Arab, why? because the Sunnis around my age group want to be muslim from top to bottom. Want to know about fiqh and how to live their daily lives as a muslim and how to fight challenges posed by western lifestyles! They want to run miles in the other direction when Pakistani ulema of today are mentioned. They are not interested in langar and fitna.

The Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat has no room for Takfir, fitna, groupisms and believing in just one Imam. I advice everybody who believes this path is on Haq to ignore such Jahil groups and focus on the honour of Islam and the daunting challenges we as Muslims aswel as Sunnis are facing!!!!!!

[FSA]

 qadrimuslim, on 14 July 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

Every single last one of the programmes regarding Sahaba or Ahle Bayt are used as a platform to attack the Shia TV channels and they have locked themselves in a viscious cycle. Most people I know have stopped watching these programmes because we dont actually hear much fazail of Ahle Bayt. My observations:

Salam

Im not replying to disagree etc. My understanding was that the 'Shia' issue is the fitna of the day. They set up their channels and allegedly started saying all sorts of offensive things. The Ulema have warned people not to watch them channels (including MTA Ahmadi tv) but people cant help it. This is the reason why the 'Shia' issue is dominating the channels. Takbeer tv was started for the sole reason to counter the Shia channels.

Many programmes do start of focusing on the Fazail. Once the phone lines are opened up then the programme direction is determined by the callers and their questions. Everyone wants to ask on the running issues across channels.

I havent had a chance to watch these programmes for many months now but I would always watch them on all channels to follow the debate.

Salam

[qadrimuslim]

You see, this is a major problem

Shia have come on TV for a long time but only when people starting calling them KAFIR and killers of Imam Husain (AS) did they begin their campaign against the Sahaba (RA).

A wiseman once said:

If you swear at someone's evil father he will swear back at your pious father. Then only you will be to blame for the pain they caused.

Our irresponsible Ulama attacked the corrupt beliefs of the Shia first and called them all kafir. They responded where they knew it would hurt by slandering the Shaykhayn and other Blessed Companions (RA).

The blame for this lies with those individuals who started the Sunni Shia war on TV. And believe you me, they did it deliberately in search of fame.

Personally I have never watched Shia TV channels on the guidance of my Shaykh.
Why would you?

[iaa]

Shia have come on TV for a long time but only when people starting calling them KAFIR and killers of Imam Husain (AS) did they begin their campaign against the Sahaba (RA).

Sorry brother but that is absolute nonsense. They have been abusing Sahabas for centuries and have been doing it on TV since their first tv channel started. Its in their DNA to abuse the blessed companions and the language they use against Sayyida Ayesha Siddiqua (Blessings Be On her and all the Blessed Wives of the Prophet) is simply disgusting. Their kufr is based on numerous things, not just one.

Also with respect, if you don't watch the channels how would you know anyway?

[qadrimuslim]

I would invite you to look at the history of the Shia in major cities of the UK

and the history of Shia on TV

As for who started what, I was pointed to various programmes/conferences when it all started going off and it was our irresponsible Mullahs who threw the first punch

[qadrimuslim]

This thread is not about TV Channels but about takfir of Ulama and other sects. There is a seperate thread for TV channel discussion.

The only connection with the TV Channels is that the unashamed and unchallenged Takfir of other sects has spilled over onto TV Channels

Can someone make a list of other Ulama that have been declared Kafir by this Mullah Mafia?

[blogger]

May I ask, does anyone accept any of the points made by myself as being valid?

[The-Mughal-Sister]

Everyone has raised their point/argument.

Please stay on topic and within the circle of academia, or else I will have to lock the topic.

[True-Seeker]

 The-Mughal-Sister, on 15 July 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

Everyone has raised their point/argument.

Cant see your contribution anywhere Sis

[Khalid_the_Warrior]

Well I've been following these threads on here for some time. I say because there have been few threads recently regarding the "others", whatever the topic it is?

Well I don't know why people call other people kharji and try to prove their kharjieet. Well for a start I totally condemn Takfir of Zia-ummat by some scholars; it is totally a disservice to ummah and dishonour to the great man. To see the love Pir sahib had for Prophet Sallaho alhe wasalam, one only has to read his Zia-u-Nabi Sallaho alhe waslam.

But the point here is; aren't we doing the same thing, putting takfir on people. Well calling Kharji is not really helping? Is it? On one hand we say that takfiri Mullah has been the cause of the division between ahle sunnah but in reality we're no different to these mullah's when passing our judgments or creating divisions.

We've to stop somewhere and think, are we different, if we are? Then how?
Calling them Kharji, Calling them Shai, Calling them Kafir, Caliing them any different names means the same things, divisions!!!!


Where we draw the line, obviously Ulema do have to take a lot of the blame but we're not far behind. If we get the same stage and audience, we will be the same.

I thought Prophet sallaho alhe wasalm and his love and nearness to Allah is the ultimate goal for all us, but where does the status of the sahab's comes into it. Who are we to judge which sahabi had what status? They are too greater people for us to even discuss about. I don't understand why people are hell-bent on dividing this ummah.

Recently sis TMS shared a very good post "Gaining Knowledge Just To Argue", it’s a good point to start and pounder over.

May Allah give us all the ability to love the believers and have a soft heart for our brothers and sisters, and guide us to the straight path. Ameen.

[The-Mughal-Sister]

 True-Seeker, on 15 July 2011 - 01:33 PM, said:

Cant see your contribution anywhere Sis

I have absolutely no interest in this issue at all, Allhamdulilah!

But as a mod I must ensure that the thread is traveling on the subject rather than going off track.

Hope you understand!

[objective-enquirer]

there was a conference in london about ten years or so ago. when maulana irfan shah sb first came to the UK. That conference was about the Qadiyaniyat and about false prophets, etc. irfan sb came and started to say that qadiyanis are not the only kafirs but shia are also kafirs and deobandis are kafirs. and then there was a rant shia shia kafir kafir, deobandis kafir....the point is that I was sitting in that conference and it was the first time that in UK such hate statments and blanket takfirs were made in such huge annual conferences. irafn shah sb is responsible for all the gandd that is spreading. he came from a village and thought London was also mandi bahao deen!!!
whats more is that his guns of takfir have turned towards our own sunnis such as pir karam shah sb, shah ahmed noorani and dr. tahirul qadri sb. it is not about groups but rather about declaring others kafirs that has polarised sunnis in the UK. all the rest is emanates from such intolerant behaviour.

This post has been edited by objective-enquirer: 16 July 2011 - 02:16 AM

[SunniSword]

Where is our leadership? Where are the people who Sunnis have to put an end to this propaganda?
When the "Takfir" game started in England why werent the culprits reprimanded? Where will this stop? Who else will be branded as kafir or Shia? Where are jamat e ahle Sunnat or BMF or minab? And why are members or graduates of Jamia Karam sitting with the same Takfiri fatwa makers?

[SunniSword]

I am completely dissatisfied with What's going on these days. Most of my friends are not practicing Muslims. They prefer to spend their time of Facebook and in shisha houses smoking away and socialising. Those that do go mosque mainly go to salafi mosques. Is it any wonder why the majority of young Muslims want nothing to do with Sunni mosques and their "Sunni conferences" ? We have huge problems and all some Sunni groups can do is say "he's kafir!" or "he's not Sunni -watch out!" or "sahaba sahaba. Panjtan panjtan"

These imported molvis are driving people away from the mosques! Not attracting them!
I agree that the ones who came in the 70s and 80s did alot for Sunnis but nowadays they are causing a hindrance. They need to let go of their egos and allow the newer generation to take us forward. We don't need to hear your fatwas, we need guidance and ulama like Hazoor Zia Ummat, Dr Tahir Qadri attract the youngsters
I have seen the Arab scholars attracting people to Islam, even those that can't speak English!! Wow!
Pir Abdul Qadir Jilani has attracted so many youngsters, by attacking him with cheap propaganda they have distracted him from this which is a big shame.
Youngsters revere the elders, these are people from a different era who are not affected or corrupted by this modern age of ignorance.

I am one of these people who consider Islam as an answer to the evil of today's world. And when we see the sheikhs and pirs we see a better way of life. What possible good is there in attacking or slandering our elders? This propaganda must be stopped! This is not an outburst but a valid observation.

[qadrimuslim]

I feel the same pain and agree that things need to change

We always thought we were the majority, because of the many Sunni Sufi or Barelvi masajid in the UK. But I honestly feel we are on the decline - a touchy subject for most people.

Sunnis in the UK must ask why SO MANY Muslims are turning to tablighi or wahabi/salafi
Are people actually becoming Sunni or going the opposite way?
I also think Pakistan is suffering the same problem - and maybe it is just spilling over to us in the UK?

Back to the topic though, and yes I also feel that open Takfir has got people asking questions about us. When the wahabis did open takfir of Sufis, people shunned them. Now its the other way round, so people will shun us.
The common Sunni has gained alot of respect for Dr Tahir ul Qadri now that many of the doubts have been cleared up; its not the same as 10 years ago. We may not all agree on every issue but we should work WITH each other - NOT AGAINST each other.

As for Sayyidi Mufakkir e Islam, I, along with many other youngsters, changed my way of life at his hands. He showed us how to live as Sufis in times of turmoil and strengthened our principles. Hazrat has always stood by his principle and this concreted our faith in him - Alhamdulillah he will never turn his back on his principles and will always speak HAQ and truth - even if it upsets those who I would call 'cavemen' or 'ideological extremists'. These are the qualities found in a Kamil Shaykh (Pir o Murshid) and are getting rarer and rarer as the days go by.

Pir Karam Shah Sahib (RA) and Mufakkir e Islam were classmates under the same teacher so its not surprising both Mashaikh share similar qualities and less surprising that Mufakkir e Islam is among the very few who spoke up against the Takfir on Pir Karam Shah Sahib (RA).

The recent turmoil has obviously got people asking many questions but now that Hazrat faced the fitna makers and took them on (almost on his own) I think a new and better direction is inevitable. The takfiri mullahs and fitnah makers have been exposed and their lack of substance has been acknowledged by the Ulama and public. We need to move onwards and upwards and tackle the issues highlighted above.

Our duty as young Muslims is to steer the course, and to tell the Ulama what we need from them - I hope that makes sense

[SunniSword]

Asalam alaykum

Even though this is the month of Ramadan, the Irfan Shah Jalali group have presented a 1 hour 45 minute video of proof that Pir Karam Shah Sahib al Azhari was a kafir (mazalla)
In the description for the video they say "Ab B Agr Koi Karam Shah k KUFAR main Shak kre to wo Khud b KAFIR ho Jae ga"
The repeatedly hijack the name of ala Hazrat and have a paper with Husamul Haramain printed on it constantly in vision. They say hundreds of molvis have signed their book to endorse the kufr of Hazoor Zia ul Ummat. I already know that Irfan Shah Mashidi has written something in the book.

For all those that thought this was just hot air, think again. For all those supporters of Irfan Shah Mashidi who have tried distancing from this blunder, think again.
The youtube channel is owned by the Abid Jalali group (you can see the rest of the videos these plonkers upload)

According to this "fatwa" all of Pir Karam Shah Sahibs mureeds and students and admirers and defenders are all "KAFIR". That makes me a kafir too
When will Sunnis wake up and confront this evil? How many more will have fatwa placed on them?
Pirzada Imdad Hussain Sahib needs to address this evil. Where are the students and graduates of Jamia al Karam? Sat with Irfan Shah Mashidi? What is the world coming to?

Honestly, I found it hard to believe everything I heard about the Jalalis but now it is all confirmed

Link removed - Please don't post these extremist links. They are too desperate to promote their hate-agenda and posting it here may increase the number of hits on their hate-videos. (desert sheikh)

[Desert-Sheikh]

 SunniSword, on 08 August 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

Asalam alaykum

Even though this is the month of Ramadan, the Irfan Shah Jalali group have presented a 1 hour 45 minute video of proof that Pir Karam Shah Sahib al Azhari was a kafir (mazalla)
In the description for the video they say "Ab B Agr Koi Karam Shah k KUFAR main Shak kre to wo Khud b KAFIR ho Jae ga"
When will Sunnis wake up and confront this evil? How many more will have fatwa placed on them?

Well, if that is the case then Pir Irfan Shah & co should also issue a Fatwa of Kufr against Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Sahib who didn't call Ismaeel Dehlvi a Kafir. Ala Hazrat said he has died a long time ago and i'm not SURE either he repented or not, but I'll give him a benefit of (the) doubt and wouldn't call him Kafir. Ismaeel Dehlvi's several statements were mentioned but no fatwa of Kufr was issued against him. And today, these (terrorists) so-called followers of Ala Hazrat and Hassam-ul-Haramen, issued a fatwa of Kufr against a noble Sunni scholar 14 years after his demise?

Hassam-ul-Haramen is being quoted, so Maulana Akhtar Raza Khan Sahib needs urgently to address this issue, or either no "Muslim" Barelvi Sunni will be left in Pakistan or Sunni's will start criticizing Fatwa-e-Hassam-ul-Haramen.

PS: If these *****rs have any shame, they should shut-down their kanjar-khana, or issue a fatwa of Kufr aginst Ala Hazrat.