[umarfarooqislam]

Imran., on 13 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

I dont care where you've had it up to mate,the fact remains those who call themselves brelvi are the biggest fitna makers within the contemporary subcon. Ahle Sunnah Wa Jamah,they seem to have ready made fatwa for most other sunnis that dont follow their "maslak".

Some are declared deviant because they allow tv,some because they allow loudspeakers for salaah,some become fasiq if they allow sama/qawali,some because they dont do takfeer of deos/wahabis,some because they dont openly preach against deviant sects,some because they wear green imama(apparent bidah),some because they are sitting on the same stage a deos,some because they create a political party consisting of all sects (for betterment of muslim masses in face of kuffar oppression) and others because they refuse to endorse this madness of a certain moulvi mafia crew,the list goes on.

Close the fatwa factories ,call yourselves simply sunni(like eveyone else,instead of brelvi or maslak e fulan fulan) then you may have leg to stand on,nor will you then be painted with same brush as troublemaker brelvis,it works with everone else.

asalaam o alaikum brother imran.

mashAllah you have very nicely analyed the reality of barelvism.

modern barelvies have done nohing for islam except mocking & doing takfir on great scholars of islam.

its time to unite against this fitna of barelvism.

[Qadri-Jilani]

There are valid points on both sides here. What is true is that there is a strand of "Barelvism" (or people who align themselves as such) which is dangerous and is far removed from the teachings of Ala Hazrat (Allah bless him). The sad part is that it is these people who most loudly claim affiliation to Ala Hazrat and you can see the vulgarism in the Abid Jalali clip on page one as an example. Irfan Shah Mashadi refers to Abid Jalali as the voice of Ala Hazrat in today's age.

Some of the things common to this group include takfir of respect Sunni Ulama (who they happen to disagree with or perhaps more aptly are simply jealous of) or slandering them as deviant; denying the qualities of the members of the Prophetic Household (peace be upon them), qualities and attributes mentioned by our great Imams; they even go to the extent of calling the great Imams of Ahl al-Bayt "Shia Imams" such as Hazrat Imam Baqir (Allah be pleased with him). Lack of knowledge and substance is another feature where you will find it being replaced with screaming and and even swearwords.

One example is that a certain speaker on Ummah TV first said that we accept Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) can be greater in juzwi faza'il but then went on to undermine any kind of juzwi quality of Hazrat Ali. To highlight how they have started a new kind of madhdhab is that this person said Hazrat Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) is "ashja'" - (most courageous) from among all the companions and not Hazrat Ali as people would like to think.

But look what Ala Hazrat says about Hazrat Ali:

Murataza sher-e-Haq ashja'-ul-ashja'een
saaqi-e-sheer o shaukat pei laakhoun salam

The bravest!

See the difference? This is a neo-nasbi sect that has departed from the teachings of Ala Hazrat but use his name to dupe the people into thinking that what we are saying is authentic Sunni aqeeda.

--

Furthermore, Muhaqqiq 'ala al-Itlaq Shah Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlawi (Allah bless him) says:

Sayyiduna Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) said that Ali is the bravest among all people (ashja'-un-naas). Sayyiduna Abu Dharr (Allah be pleased with him) said that this bravery was highlighted on the night of hijra when the kuffar planned on martyring the Holy Prophet and the Holy Prophet placed Sayyiduna Ali in his bed (Madarij al-Nabuwwa).

There are many other proofs that can be cited from his roles in various battles, this is just to show you the belief of Hazrat Shah Abdul Haqq Muhaddith Dehlawi and compare it to this new brand of so-called barelvism.

[qadrimuslim]

Here is the methodology of these Mullahs

1 - Aim for fame. But how to break into an already dominated field?

2 - Attack the established Ulama

3 - Identify an area where they can attack

4 - Call ALL Shia, Deobandi and Wahabi as KAFIR and see if they get away with it

5 - Attack your own elders if you can find any reason to label them Shia, Deobandi or Wahabi sympathisers

6 - Start discussing Ikhtilaafi issues all over the place and slander and swear at those who give better answers ie Afzaliyyat of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (RA)

[blogger]

Qadri-Jilani, on 13 July 2011 - 05:12 PM, said:

There are valid points on both sides here. What is true is that there is a strand of "Barelvism" ... Irfan Shah Mashadi refers to Abid Jalali as the voice of Ala Hazrat in today's age.

These people are in a significant minority when compared to the majority of the 'Brelvi' scholars. Why tarnish everyone with the same brush, why are we giving these people so much attention? The Taliban/Al Qaeda and others are given much coverage but everyone knows they represent the minority view.

[qadrimuslim]

Barelvi label vs Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah

Historically Sunnis of the Indo Pak region have been labelled as Barelvi and most if not all of us here fall into the same category

what we need to diagnose is how some groups within this category have branched off into an extremist position including becoming the voice of Nasbiyat

1 - Imam Ahmad Raza (RA) himself was accused of being a Shia, so my request to all on YaNabi is NOT to associate Nasbiyat or Kharjiyat with Imam Raza (RA)



Edit: Fanatic terrorist video removed. You should be ashamed for posting it here (desert sheikh).

2 - Imam Raza (RA) praised the Ahle Bayt and had immense love and respect for Sunni Sayyids. He recognised that Sunni Sayyids have special connection and favour to their father, Imam Ali (AS) so advised not to be harsh towards Sayyids.



This is the main reason why the majority of Sayyids of the subcontinent are Sunnis. If we allow the new mullah brigade to gain pace, who are more kharji than barelvi, then you will see the Sayyids turn their back on the school of Imam Raza (RA) and we will be the only ones to blame.

[qadrimuslim]

5 - These are my observations and a small diagnosis of where this illness has come from. Some "barelvi groups" have played into the hands of the Kharji deobandis.

Shaykh Muhammad bin Yahya Ninowy explains this illness - oh and is it any surprise the same "barelvi groups" slander against him too?

[Qadri-Jilani]

blogger, on 13 July 2011 - 07:05 PM, said:

These people are in a significant minority when compared to the majority of the 'Brelvi' scholars. Why tarnish everyone with the same brush, why are we giving these people so much attention? The Taliban/Al Qaeda and others are given much coverage but everyone knows they represent the minority view.

This is why I said there are points on both sides. I agree that we must not tarnish all with the same brush but I would like to see this majority of "barelvi" ulama come out and correct what is being done in the name of Ala Hazrat.

I feel sick sometimes watching our TV channels and I just switch over. They are doing a disservice to the Ahl-e-Sunnat and Ala Hazrat's name and give the Shia a field day; why, because they tell their people and the unconvinced that this is how insincere the "Sunnis" are about the Ahl-ul-Bayt. Yes defend the Sahaba but if you wish to win over the Shia then you will have to start giving the Ahl-ul-Bayt their due otherwise they will simply have their perceptions confirmed about what they have been told about us.

When some of the Ulama praise the Ahl-ul-Bayt according to the Qur'an, Sunnah and history they sadly get labelled as Shia by "some" and any others wishing to do so can expect to find themselves in the firing line of a certain mulla mafia.

[Imran.]

blogger, on 13 July 2011 - 11:15 AM, said:

Would I be termed a 'Brelvi' if I accept Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih as a Mujaddid or believe his works to be correct and in line with the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat?

No,although if you were to believe he was the only mujaddid(rejecting others on a whim or out of arrogance) and believed his stance was the only correct one and no one has/had right to differ with and if they did they would always be the ones in error,then that would make you a brelvi.

Are you such a "brelvi"?

[Ahle-Sunnah-Uprising]

Imran., on 13 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Some are declared deviant because they allow tv,some because they allow loudspeakers for salaah,some become fasiq if they allow sama/qawali,some because they dont do takfeer of deos/wahabis,some because they dont openly preach against deviant sects,some because they wear green imama(apparent bidah),some because they are sitting on the same stage a deos,some because they create a political party consisting of all sects (for betterment of muslim masses in face of kuffar oppression) and others because they refuse to endorse this madness of a certain moulvi mafia crew,the list goes on.

i agree there are scholars with such a solid view, but there are even more barelwi scholars who have differences of opinion on the above. Agreeing to the above paragraph isnt the entry requirement of being a barelwi you know. Anyone and everyone who loves and respects Alahazrat is a barelwi (subheading of Ahlus Sunnah) just because you have an alergy to the barelwi word doesnt mean you attribute all the bad to it. I am 100% in coordance with the view that we should refer to ourselves as Ahlus Sunnah, but this doesnt mean we badtalk the barelwi title at every opportunity and keep shifting the blame, because no sunni deserves to badtalk another, no sunni has actually lived upto the sunni name and done us proud so i dont know why people are quick to point at others when collectively we have failed.

You see the reason you label everyone as barelwi and backward bla bla is the reason yourself you get named tafdhilil bla bla. Someone has to stop calling the other names for the cycle to stop. As much as you think you are trying to stay steadfast on your point and a defender of the truth and a big man who speaks his mind - you actually are causing further divisions. Sometimes silence is the best way forward. Think im done with this and dont have much more to add.

[Ahle-Sunnah-Uprising]

Imran., on 13 July 2011 - 11:54 PM, said:

No,although if you were to believe he was the only mujaddid(rejecting others on a whim or out of arrogance) and believed his stance was the only correct one and no one has/had right to differ with and if they did they would always be the ones in error,then that would make you a brelvi.

Are you such a "brelvi"?

That has to be the most ridiculous description of barelwis ever. Just like your subheading is Golravi and you would defend it, I am happy to be Barelwi and wouldnt like people disrespecting. I respect all of the Mujadids and believe the differences in approach opinion is a mercy. These Mujadids are all crowns on our head = according to your description, suddenly i have come out of the Barelwi subheading and into the Ahlus Sunnah parent title!?

[Desert-Sheikh]

Qadri-Jilani, on 13 July 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

This is why I said there are points on both sides. I agree that we must not tarnish all with the same brush but I would like to see this majority of "barelvi" ulama come out and correct what is being done in the name of Ala Hazrat.

Yes, this is the time all top scholars from Indo-o-Pak and especially from Ala Hazrat's family and Khulfa' come forward to stop this fitna, or, it will leave inevitable stains on his name.

But majority is busy in collecting Zakat and Langar-fund, visiting Mureeds abroad or Umrah's, cursing devbandis/wahabis and issuing fatwas on fellow Sunni's.

[Imran.]

Ahle-Sunnah-Uprising, on 14 July 2011 - 12:43 AM, said:

That has to be the most ridiculous description of barelwis ever. Just like your subheading is Golravi and you would defend it, I am happy to be Barelwi and wouldnt like people disrespecting. I respect all of the Mujadids and believe the differences in approach opinion is a mercy. These Mujadids are all crowns on our head = according to your description, suddenly i have come out of the Barelwi subheading and into the Ahlus Sunnah parent title!?

When did you see a Golravi giving a fatwa of kufr or deviancy on a fellow sunni?

[Imran.]

Ahle-Sunnah-Uprising, on 14 July 2011 - 12:36 AM, said:

You see the reason you label everyone as barelwi and backward bla bla is the reason yourself you get named tafdhilil bla bla.

So i'm tafdhili because i call people brelvi, and not for any other reason?

All those little forums full of hate and villification,slandering me, the forum,its members and shuyukh were created because i label people
brelvi?

I think you hanging around with ultra brelvis(no names need mentioning) is taking an affect,isnt that why you jumped ship in the first place?

[Faqir-Alam]

True-Seeker, on 10 July 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

Very disappointing.. When they talk about fikr e raza rather than spreading the teachings of ala hazrat r.a or implementing the teachings of ala hazrat (like dawat e islami) there just busy in doing takfir (may allah guide them)

I remember irfan shah sahib saying that he is going to get 500 ulama of this era to sign this fatwa and get it renewed, seems like those 500 will be graduates of his madrassah similar to the likes of Abid jalali sahib or maybe he wants the world to accept him as the ala hazrat of this time (god knows)

btw From my limited research below are the list of some well known sunni scholers that never done takfir of deobandis and in some way had good relations with them

Pir Mehr Ali shah sahib Golravi r.a

Mawlana Ghulam Muhammad Ghawthi r.a (khalifa of pir mehr ali shah)

pir ghulam muhiyuddin successor of pir mehr ali shah

Mawlana Kamil al-Din Rattu Kalwi r.a

Pir jamaat ali shah muhaddith alipuri r.a

Shaikh Qamruddin sialvi

Khawaja Fazal ali shah qureshi r.a

Mian sher muhammad sharaqpuri r.a

Khawaja Fazal ur rahman ansari r.a

pir naseeruddin naseer r.a

Shaikh habib ali al jifri

Sayyid Muhammad Ibn Alawi al-Maliki

Sheikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah, Syria

Pir alauddin siddiqui naqshbandi

Dr tahir ul qadri

Pir abdul qadir jilani qadri

pir sadiq sahib naqshbandi (kotli azad kashmir)

Scholers of Farangi Mahal (india)

Syed shah ahmad noorani r.a

Mashaikh of chura shareef (the four early mashaikh of chura shareef were graduated from deoband)

Pir ghulam habib sahib r.a (from chakwal pakistan, a non deobandi but deobandis had a good relationship with him)

Shaikh Mahmood Afandi of Turkey

And the list goes on... so i think Irfan shah sahib and crew need to wake up and do there homework.
mostly people like this have no education or skills, hence they cant progress or benefit the ummah they just graduate from madrassahs and start gathering crowds by shouting and screaming and after they have gathered a number of people they make a group and give it a name (sipah e sahaba, jaish e muhammad etc etc) and after that there just after fame.. and this thing mainly started at the time of gen zia ul haq hence you will only find this in india and pakistan

Shaykh Abdul Baqi And Shaykh Osman Sirajuddin Also ........

[blogger]

Qadri-Jilani, on 13 July 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

Yes defend the Sahaba but if you wish to win over the Shia then you will have to start giving the Ahl-ul-Bayt their due otherwise they will simply have their perceptions confirmed about what they have been told about us.

Come on guys are you serious? have some balance please ... programmes on the birth of Hazrat Ali Radiallahu Anhu were aired, on the blessed Panjatan Paak, Karbala and many others. Why do you keep saying that the Ahle Bayt are not being given their due?

It's dissapointing to see how you can accuse others so easily of not giving the Ahle Bayt their due. There are scholars offspring of the Ahle Bayt and others mureeds of Syeds and others who give their time and effort to appear on TV and rest assured they give the utmost respect, love and reverance to the Ahle Bayt.

This is the love 'Brelvi' scholars have for the Ahle Bayt (a video uploaded about 2 weeks ago):
Hazrat Fatima Radiallahu Anha - Majesty Of The Grand Lady Of Paradise

Please provide constructive suggestions as to what more could be done to convinve you that the Ahle Bayt are given their due on the Sunni TV channels.

[blogger]

Imran., on 13 July 2011 - 11:54 PM, said:

No,although if you were to believe he was the only mujaddid(rejecting others on a whim or out of arrogance) and believed his stance was the only correct one and no one has/had right to differ with and if they did they would always be the ones in error,then that would make you a brelvi.

Are you such a "brelvi"?

We have gone off-topic here, to clearly state I cannot for the life of me see how Pir Karam Shah Saheb the guiding light of so many cannot be deemed to be a Muslim. The people raising this issue have to ask themselves what benefit will this bring?

I'm no such "Brelvi", and neither are the vast majority of Brelvis in India, Pakistan or worldwide for that matter. There are many Shuyukhs with Qadri, Chisti, Naqshbandi and Soharwardi roots who have no problem in being labelled Brelvi, the vast majority does not insist on Ala Hazrat being the only mujaddid but the facts are the majority from the Sub Continent recognise him as the foremost mujaddid of the era. Do you agree?

There are Brelvi scholars who academically do differ on some of Ala Hazrat's rulings based on fiqhi research carried out by personalities respected by Ala Hazrat but they would still be happy to sit under the shade of the Brelvi umbrella. We use the term 'Brelvi' because Ala Hazrat foresaw the need to make a clear distinction providing a framework for future generations to come, clearly defining our fundamental beliefs which cannot be compromised in anyway. There are very few personalities in the last century (to the extent that Ala Hazrat has) who have clearly defined what the Ahle Sunnah stands for.

I've answered your question so can you please answer mine:

- What is your definition of Brelvi?

- What is your definition of Ala Hazrat's maslak?

- How should we distinguish ourselves from others who call themselves Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat but do not actually have the same view as you and me, with regards to Tawheed and Risalah, Status of Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, Tawassul etc. fundamental aspects of an individual's beliefs?

- Finally, do you accept the fundamental aqeedah rulings of Ala Hazrat? If you do, then like it or not others (Deo/Tab/Wah/Salaf/Shiah/Ahle Hadi ...) will term you 'Brelvi' because that has become the identity of the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat in the Sub Continent. How will you go about stopping this?

I think we need to embrace the label and like previously mentioned those coming under this umbrella choosing to abuse this should be corrected by the majority.

[Imran.]

blogger, on 14 July 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Please tell me what else could be done to convinve you that the Ahle Bayt are given their due on the Sunni TV channels.

Dont invite qari tayyab naqshbandi for start,and every show you air about the Ahle Bayt dont turn it into an afzaliyat of shaikhain show but rather concentrate on the blessed family instead on their fazail(even if juzwi).

Thus far many a show has been hijacked for the likes Syed Irfan shah sahib to start their war of words(attack tahirul qadiri etc),usually after a call from people raising such issues just to deliberately cause fitna.

Some time ago a friend of ours called in to a show discussing the validity of sama,where the stance of Ala Hadrat breilly(ra) was being promoted by the moulvi sahibs there,our friend when asked what his question was in regards to,replied that he wanted to remind them of the reported meeting of Al Gawth ulAdham with Sultan ul Hind and the sama mehfil that proceeded,instead of the allowing him input to the actually live show being aired
the operator replied " i could let raise this point,but i might aswell tell that this event did not take place",what a joke,suffice to say it did not get any further.

Why are phone operators actings as scholars themselves?

[blogger]

Imran., on 14 July 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

[font="Garamond"][size="4"]every show you air about the Ahle Bayt dont turn it into an afzaliyat of shaikhain show but rather concentrate on the blessed family instead on their fazail(even if juzwi).

That has been the focus and intention but when others abuse and insult the Sahaba over the phone live on air a response needs to be made.

Quote

Thus far many a show has been hijacked for the likes Syed Irfan shah sahib to start their war of words(attack tahirul qadiri etc),usually after a call from people raising such issues just to deliberately cause fitna.

People calling to cause chaos or showing support singling out only a certain scholar out of the many on the program is not in ones' control. TV channels do not allow discussions on present day scholars this is avoided at all times.

Quote

Some time ago a friend of ours called in to a show discussing the validity of sama,where the stance of Ala Hadrat breilly(ra) was being promoted by the moulvi sahibs there,our friend when asked what his question was in regards to,replied that he wanted to remind them of the reported meeting of Al Gawth ulAdham with Sultan ul Hind and the sama mehfil that proceeded

There is an acceptance of a difference of opinion. Some choose to follow Ala Hazrat's stance on issues such as Qawwali whilst other scholars choose not to, as displayed in Qawwali/Sama mehfils broadcast on TV where scholars sit comfortably in the audience. We all accept that on fiqhi rulings there is room for manouvere and a different opinion from Ala Hazrat on non-aqeedah issues is not such a bad thing. Other issues such as ladies visiting the cemetry and mosques, dying of the hair, internally there is a difference of opinion but all the 'Brelvi' scholars accept this difference of opinion and choose to appear happily on the same stage.

Quote

Why are phone operators actings as scholars themselves?

That's something that needs to be looked at. Allama Khurshid Alam Sabri Saheb needs to be made aware of this.

[Imran.]

blogger, on 14 July 2011 - 09:49 AM, said:

what is your definition of Brelvi?

You got it above,if your not then it doesnt concern you does it,stick to ahle sunni wal jamah alone,no need for add ons.

Quote

what is your definition of Ala Hazrat's maslak?

Why dont give me your understanding of what a maslak entails first then i'll tell you how its impossible for everyone to agree with the whole any one maslak.

Quote

How do we distinguish ourselves from others who call themselves Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat but do not actually have the same view as us with regards to Tawheed and Risalah, Status of Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, Tawassul etc. fundamental aspects of an individual's beleifs?

How did people distinguish at the time of taymiyya,ibn Qayyum etc and the time of ibn Abdul Wahaab najdi whole claimed to follow hanbali school,how to do the hanafi sunnis of turkey central asia distinguish,they dont seem to have problem with carry on being sunni without such labels.?

Why do you need to?

Quote

Finally, do you accept the fundamental aqeedah rulings of Ala Hazrat? if you do, then like it or not others (Deo/Tab/Wah/Salaf/Shiah/Ahle Hadi ...) will term you 'Brelvi' because that has become the identity of the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat in the Sub Continent.?

My point exactly,its a termed coined by the deo/wahabiah to justify their own claim to being sunni too,they decieve vulnerable people by stating that there are 2 schools of thought with in sub continant sunnis namely deobandi and breilly ,the latter being biddati.

Brelvis(those sunnis who want to be called such) like mugs have fallen for it,adopted the tag and really seen sunnism divided by those that want to be called brelvi and those that dont.
Many a fatwa has been given on this pretext alone.
So just because these sects call us brelvi we should adopt it?

What if they give us another label next will you adopt that too?

Quote

I think we need to embrace the label

I rest my case,that is exactly the brelvi mindset i'm against.

PS If you want people to stop people having a go at extreme brelvi's then you claimants to the "true" brelwiyat better get your fingers out of your ears and openly condemn and alienate this "minority" otherwise you will always be painted with the same brush, that being rather narrowminded or your silence will give the impression that you are a party to the actions of some bad apples(as you claim).

[blogger]

Imran., on 14 July 2011 - 10:37 AM, said:

You got it above,if your not then it doesnt concern you does it,stick to ahle sunni wal jamah alone,no need for add ons.

- There's no point carrying on as clearly my definiton and your defintion of 'Brelvi' is totally different.

- I have given my thoughts on what I beleive Ala Hazrat's 'maslak' symbolises.

- We need to maintain our identity, that is why names such as 'Khawarij' were used during the times of Hazrat Ali Radiallahu Anhu (way before abdul-wahhab and taymiyyah etc.). Why? Because a dstinction had to be made, people were not prepared to be associated with others who held wrong beliefs and carried out horrific crimes in the name of the same religion.

Quote

PS If you want people to stop people having a go at extreme brelvi's then you claimants to the "true" brelwiyat better get your fingers out of your ears and openly condemn and alienate this "minority" otherwise you will always be painted with the same brush, that being rather narrowminded or your silence will give the impression that you are a party to the actions of some bad apples(as you claim).

Same thing is happening to the 'Muslim' label world over. Newspaper, TV, media are using the words and actions of a few to tarnish the majority. It's time the silent majority did something about it and at the same time onlookers adopted a balanced view reflecting reality choosing not to be ignorant.