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Slanderous Takfir Of Pir Karam Shah Zia Ul Ummat Rahmatullahalaih

Posted 10 July 2011 - 02:18 PM (#1) User is offline   SunniSword 

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Salam to all my Sunni brethren
with much sadness I am starting this thread after much slander of Zia ul Ummat Pir Karam Shah Sahib al Azhari (Ra) of Bhera, Pakistan

here is a brief sketch of the Shaykh's life and works:

http://www.pirkarams...mmats-biography

Now, the reason for his slander/takfir was his refusal to be forced into doing takfir of others (deobandis in particular). A book has been written to this effect and videos are available on youtube where the mullah brigade have insulted Pir Karam Shah Sahib in words I cannot repeat. No prizes for guessing which group is behind this propaganda. 

The same principle of Takfir has also been applied to Naseer e Millat Pir Syed Naseer uddin Shah Sahib (Ra) of Golra Sharif and also the great thinker, Dr Tahir ul Qadri who shared the same view as Pir Karam Shah Sahib (Ra)



This dangerous principle can spiral out of control and can also be applied to other grand Scholars such as Pir Syed Mehr Ali Shah Gilani Golravi (Ra) Mujadid and Murshid of uncountable Sunnis and Shaykh ul Islam Qamar uddin Siyalvi and others who did not do such takfir of deobandis

What is the Sunni position on takfir of deobandis? And what is the hukm on those who spread hatred and do open Takfir of Muslims and Islamic Scholars and Shuyukh? 
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 02:45 PM (#2) User is offline   Imran. 

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Zia ul ummat was one of the greatest subcontinant sunni scholars of his era and a wali too.

Deobandis(as a fraternity) are muslim by default.

Heck,brelvis haven't to this day been able to define what a deobandi even is.




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Posted 10 July 2011 - 05:45 PM (#3) User is offline   qadrimuslim 

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Most people, including myself, consider Pir Karam Shah (RA) a saintly person who worked day and night for the religion and was a luminary and visionary. He also happened to be a class-fellow of my Shaykh, Sayyidi Mufakkir e Islam.

You are not alone in this concern. Many of us are alarmed at this madness and are waiting for the Ahlus Sunnah to get tough on these jahils. Many are wondering if these jahils are actually Khwarijites hiding as Sunnis. To do takfir of SO MANY Scholars is a sign of the Khwarijites.
When the Ulama looked at the history of Hizb ur Tahrir, this was the same conclusion the Ulama Ahlus Sunnah came to.

The hukm on someone calling a Muslim a Kafir is that one of the two surely is a Kafir - I will let you decide which one in this case

What is clearer is the case of the one who slanders and lies against a Muslim Scholar which is what these arrogant Mullahs constantly do!

Pir Karam Shah (RA) has passed away and once someone passes away, your ikhtilaf with that person also ends
Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (RA) did not do takfir of Ismail Dehlvi for this very reason but you see the extremists totally disregard Ala Hazrat (RA) but then claim to be upholding his maslak

As for Pir Mehr Ali Shah (RA) then yes, there is evidence where such extremists have doubted his Iman too - mazallah
Pir Naseer Uddin Naseer (RA) was an open critic of doing takfir of ANY deobandi and declared his preference that Sayyiduna Ali (KW) is more afzal to Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (RA) so he is in their line of fire too


Back to Pir Karam Shah (RA) - the extremists are currently chopping and changing their position because they know people are raising eyebrows about this issue. They have renamed threads from "takfir of Pir Karam Shah" to "view on Pir Karam Shah" and have tried twisting and turning to try and say they have not done takfir but to be honest, everything you need to see is here:



May Allah raise the rank of Ulama e Haq and give hidayat to the arrogant mullahs who want to sow seeds of hatred

"The Sufi Must Submit to the Faqih" - Shaykh Ahmad Zurruq (RA)

Wa-la Ghalib Il-Allah "There is no Conqueror but Allah"
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:13 PM (#4) User is offline   True-Seeker 

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Very disappointing.. When they talk about fikr e raza rather than spreading the teachings of ala hazrat r.a or implementing the teachings of ala hazrat (like dawat e islami) there just busy in doing takfir (may allah guide them)

I remember irfan shah sahib saying that he is going to get 500 ulama of this era to sign this fatwa and get it renewed, seems like those 500 will be graduates of his madrassah similar to the likes of Abid jalali sahib or maybe he wants the world to accept him as the ala hazrat of this time (god knows)

btw From my limited research below are the list of some well known sunni scholers that never done takfir of deobandis and in some way had good relations with them

Pir Mehr Ali shah sahib Golravi r.a

Mawlana Ghulam Muhammad Ghawthi r.a (khalifa of pir mehr ali shah)

pir ghulam muhiyuddin successor of pir mehr ali shah

Mawlana Kamil al-Din Rattu Kalwi r.a

Pir jamaat ali shah muhaddith alipuri r.a

Shaikh Qamruddin sialvi

Khawaja Fazal ali shah qureshi r.a

Mian sher muhammad sharaqpuri r.a

Khawaja Fazal ur rahman ansari r.a

Hazrat Abdul Ghaffar Naqshbnadi (larkana sindh)

pir naseeruddin naseer r.a

Shaikh habib ali al jifri

Sayyid Muhammad Ibn Alawi al-Maliki

Sheikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah, Syria

pir sadiq sahib naqshbandi (kotli azad kashmir)

Scholers of Farangi Mahal (india)

Syed shah ahmad noorani r.a

Mashaikh of chura shareef (the four early mashaikh of chura shareef were graduated from deoband)

Pir ghulam habib sahib r.a (from chakwal pakistan, a non deobandi but deobandis had a good relationship with him)

Shaikh Mahmood Afandi of Turkey

And the list goes on... so i think Irfan shah sahib and crew need to wake up and do there homework.
mostly people like this have no education or skills, hence they cant progress or benefit the ummah they just graduate from madrassahs and start gathering crowds by shouting and screaming and after they have gathered a number of people they make a group and give it a name (sipah e sahaba, jaish e muhammad etc etc) and after that there just after fame.. and this thing mainly started at the time of gen zia ul haq hence you will only find this in india and pakistan


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Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:40 PM (#5) User is offline   Imran. 

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True seeker,there at least 3 names in there that are aligned with the deobandi school of thought,you know who they are i feel,you cant really expect to use them as evidence.

Although the rest is valid i suppose.




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Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:47 PM (#6) User is offline   True-Seeker 

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what do you mean when you say aligned with the deobandi school of thought ?
Deen does not Change with Circumstances BUT Circumstances Change with Deen!
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:05 PM (#7) User is offline   Imran. 

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View PostTrue-Seeker, on 10 July 2011 - 08:47 PM, said:

what do you mean when you say aligned with the deobandi school of thought ?


Praised and adopted the maslak of deoband and its elders,and stayed connected to them whilst breaking off from the rest of the sunni(or what the deos may call "brelvi" school) mashaykh/maslak,you must remember that deoband broke away from the rest of the worlds Ahle Sunnah community when they introduced wahaabi influence fatwas into their maslak.

Give you an example pir ghulam habib of chakwal was a godly person towards the latter part of his life(i admit),but his khalifa(s)/followers are deobandi e.g. zulfikar Ahmed Naqshbandi,etc they say saying YaRasoolAllah is haraam etc.

I am not judging the accomplishments of these shaykhs but just stating that you cannot use their names in this case,because their connection with deoband is more than just studying there and then leaving,so why would they endorse any fatwa against the deobandis anyway?

Its different with the other names as they stayed with the larger majority of mashaykh in terms of maslak .





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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:23 PM (#8) User is offline   Desert-Sheikh 

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View PostTrue-Seeker, on 10 July 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:


btw From my limited research below are the list of some well known sunni scholers that never done takfir of deobandis and in some way had good relations with them



Brother TS,

Please, keep non- subcontinental scholars away from this issue because they don’t understand the language of disputed statements. Takfir of all Devbandis or signing Fatawa-Hassam-ul-Haramein was never an issue. It is a false propaganda by few close minded Mullahs that to be a Barelvi one has to call all Devbandis, Wahabis and Shias Kafir.

It also doesn’t matter that who signed the Fatwa or who didn’t call Devbandis Kafir but actual issue is the statements. Can you please post the name of any subcontinental Sunni scholar who defends/endorses the disputed statements?

And now back to the topic: Zia ul Ummat Pir Karam Shah Sahib is a great Imam of this era, his tremendous efforts and services for Islam are unmatched. I am unaware of Hazoor Zia-ul-Ummat’s stance on the statements but I am sure he can never defend the disputed statements.

Above videos didn’t surprise me at all nor do I want to comment on it but I would like to propose to speakers (Pir Irfan Sahib and the Jalali Sahib) that please, please go to a proper law school, pass the examination (even with the lowest grades) and at least become a town-court lawyer before commenting on the position and status of the Chief Justice of the Federal Shariah Court of Pakistan.

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:16 PM (#9) User is offline   True-Seeker 

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View PostImran., on 10 July 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

Give you an example pir ghulam habib of chakwal was a godly person towards the latter part of his life(i admit),but his khalifa(s)/followers are deobandi e.g. zulfikar Ahmed Naqshbandi,etc they say saying YaRasoolAllah is haraam etc.

I am not judging the accomplishments of these shaykhs but just stating that you cannot use their names in this case,because their connection with deoband is more than just studying there and then leaving,so why would they endorse any fatwa against the deobandis anyway?

Its different with the other names as they stayed with the larger majority of mashaykh in terms of maslak .




Yes Pir ghulam habib sahib is respected by the deobandi's that are close to zulfikar ahmad naqshbandi, however he is known to have said on record that we are not deobandis and that was his claim, that's why i mentioned his name.. with regards zulfikar ahmad naqshbandi i dont know what there opinion is with regards to saying yarasulullah, however i fully agree that he claims to be a deobandi and has adopted that maslak but that doesn't make his pir (ghulam habib sahib)one
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:23 PM (#10) User is offline   Brother_MGS 

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You know what I think the two points Im going to make will defeat any radical Barelvi who has done takfir of Zia ul Ummat, who was not only a fantastic scholar but was a genuine son of Pakistan.

In August 1988, upon the request of General Zia-ul-Haq, Shaykh Muhammad Karam Shah travelled to Geneva and defended the position of the government of Pakistan upon the issue raised by the Pakistani Qadiyanis at the Human Rights Commission of the United Nations. The Qadiyanis filed a complaint to the Commission that their human rights were being violated in Pakistan. After three days of continuous deliberations, thirteen out of fifteen judges at the Commission declared that the rights of the Qadiyanis were in fact not being violated by the Pakistanis or the government of Pakistan.

He convinced 13 of the worlds best human rights judges at Geneva that Pakistan wasn't violating the rights of Qadiyanis. What does that say about this man? That he was a phenominal lawyer. A muslim from Pakistan has gone and defended the honour of his country infront of non-muslim Judges and won the case for his country. That to me shows him being a master of law and his worldly education levels.

Shah was involved in the Pakistan independence movement of 1947 led by Muhammad ‘Ali Jinnah; the ‘finality of prophethood’ movement of 1974 (whose objective was to constitutionally recognise the Ahmadi/Qadiyani population as a non-Muslim minority in Pakistan and not to be included as Muslims); and the ‘Nizam Mustafa’ movement of 1977 opposing the ideas of Socialism presented by the government of Zulfqar Ali Bhutto of the Pakistan’s People Party. In 1970, Shaykh Muhammad Karam Shah began publishing the Ziya’i Haram Monthly, which is primarily a journal of Islamic Studies that presents articles and essays related to academia.


Thats futher proof that Zia ul Ummat was not just an Islamic Scholar. But a Son and loyal servant to his nation.

Now going on to my next point, I have the english translation of his Dhiya Ul Quran. This translation as the translator states has been minimised meaning theres bits he may have left out from the original.
In an English summarised version of Dhiya Ul Quran, if the meaning and the wonders of Bismillahirrahmanirrahim can take up 4 pages of commentry. It just shows you the calibre of knowledge this Wali of Allah(SWT) possessed.

Allah(SWT)'s pious Awliya leave a footprint on this world. Pir Sayyid Mehr Ali Shah(ra) was the Mujaddid who defended the core belief of Islam. Data Hajveri(ra) and Khawaja Ghareeb Nawaz(ra) converted millions to the folds of Islam, non muslims go and pay homage to their graves till this day. The list is endless of the feats of such men. Justice Pir Karam Ali Shah Al Azhari(ra) defended Pakistan in the highest human rights court in the world, He has left behind the best Islamic boarding school in Europe. The national exam results of Jamia Al Karam speak for themselves. His institution provides Ulema that are educated to fantastically high levels in both worldly and Islamic education. With access to Sunni Islam's most prestigious university, Al Azhar.

This source qoutes from 3 years back.
Jamia Al-Karam's Al-Karam Secondary School has remained in first position in the Nottinghamshire GCSE league for the last three consecutive years; 2005, 2006 and 2007.

On Thursday 21 August 2008, the GCSE results of 2008 were released by all schools nationally. Jamia Al-Karam achieved an outstanding result of 100% pass rate (A*-C grade in 5+ subjects including A*-C in English and Mathematics). Of all the total number of grades achieved by the pupils in all their subjects, 20% were A*, 34% were A, 28% were B and 11% were C.


Now all the Ulema who do his takfir, could we please have sources of their great achievements?. Wasnt it Irfan Shah Saab that landed Ummah channel a £50000 fine?, wasn't it the Shia community who detested against him getting permenant UK stay? Does that explain why he spends his time evenly between the UK and Pakistan? Cooks up trouble the British Muslim community as a whole doesnt need?

Wheres his success story? Apart from defeating people with a confused Aqeedah in a few Munazaras?

How is he serving the muslims of Bradford let alone the UK?

Where is proof of him defending his nation or even Islam in an intellecual battle with non muslims?

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:33 PM (#11) User is offline   True-Seeker 

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View PostDesert-Sheikh, on 10 July 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

Brother TS,

It also doesn’t matter that who signed the Fatwa or who didn’t call Deobandis Kafir but actual issue is the statements. Can you please post the name of any subcontinental Sunni scholar who defends/endorses the disputed statements?



Brother anybody with a slightest bit of sense would never agree with these statements, in fact if you go to darululoom deobands main website and ask a deobandi mufti about these statements im sure his reply would be no different to that of ala hazrats.

The issue is when one blatantly says that this is/was the belief of deobandis, ive come across many friend's that claim to be deobandis and non of them believe this and neither do there scholar's
so there is no doubt with regards to the statements, the dispute starts when you start claiming that so and so had this belief, as this only Allah knows and it has also been refuted by the associates of those scholers

That's all what i would like to say and i think its better if we stick to the topic

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 12:46 AM (#12) User is offline   Azhari-Mia 

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Pir Jamaat Ali Shah Alipuri signed "As-Sawarimul Hindiya" and agreed on Hussam ul Haramain on the Kufr of the 4 deobandi leaders.
TAAJUSH SHARIAH
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Posted 11 July 2011 - 07:53 AM (#13) User is offline   Asif-Ali-Taxila 

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its a Khawarji character to do takfir of muslims, those who have done takfir of pir karam shah al azhari or any other sunni aalim are khwarji in disguise of sunni.
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Posted 11 July 2011 - 09:15 PM (#14) User is offline   hafiz-qadri 

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Aslaamualikum

This is the true sad state of Mullah Mafia and yet people on this forum are still defending these Jahils.If Sunnis allow these people to call Pir Karam Shah (rehmatullahialy)a KAFIR so who is a Sunni?Certainly not these Giro Cashing and Fake Visa obtainers.


HAQ SAB YAAR 160 LASHES FOR IN DENIAL.
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Posted 12 July 2011 - 02:06 AM (#15) User is offline   SunniSword 

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I appreciate all the replies in this thread
I was beginning to think nobody cared about this horrific injustice to a man who worked day and night for this maslak.

I am going to scan and upload the pages of the book where they give a fatwa on Hazoor Zia ul Ummah
Syed irfan mashadi wrote a taqriz in the book. How can Sunnis allow him to go on unchallenged?
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Posted 12 July 2011 - 11:48 PM (#16) User is offline   Ahle-Sunnah-Uprising 

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View PostImran., on 10 July 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:


Deobandis(as a fraternity) are muslim by default.

Heck,brelvis haven't to this day been able to define what a deobandi even is.



I dont see why you mudsling the "barelwi" title all the time. We are all indebted to people like Imam Ahmed Rida (RadiAllah anho), Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib (RadiAllah anho), Pir Jamat Ali Shah (RadiAllah anho). Today if there are some people who carry out slander and wrong actions under the barelwi title then why is it the whole barelwi name is taken in vain. In the same manner if a person who claims to be Jamaati etc and carries out slander or wrong actions then applying a shia tafdhili title to all Jamaatis should not be permitted.

Ive had it upto here when anything goes wrong you use the barelwi title, and (on the very very rare occasion) when its going good its Ahlus Sunnah!? As well as banning the Haq Sab/Char and the Pir wars, I also think the mention of barelwis should also be banned because lately few members on this site are very quick to point the finger and easily put the blame on the "barelwis" when the culprits have nothing to do with maslak-e-alahazrat. Most of the time a non-issue is just played up by the on-line equivalents of the maulvis out there, just to cause more divides in the Ummah.
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Posted 13 July 2011 - 10:33 AM (#17) User is offline   Imran. 

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View PostAhle-Sunnah-Uprising, on 12 July 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

Ive had it upto here when anything goes wrong you use the barelwi title,

I dont care where you've had it up to mate,the fact remains those who call themselves brelvi are the biggest fitna makers within the contemporary subcon. Ahle Sunnah Wa Jamah,they seem to have ready made fatwa for most other sunnis that dont follow their "maslak".

Some are declared deviant because they allow tv,some because they allow loudspeakers for salaah,some become fasiq if they allow sama/qawali,some because they dont do takfeer of deos/wahabis,some because they dont openly preach against deviant sects,some because they wear green imama(apparent bidah),some because they are sitting on the same stage a deos,some because they create a political party consisting of all sects (for betterment of muslim masses in face of kuffar oppression) and others because they refuse to endorse this madness of a certain moulvi mafia crew,the list goes on.

Close the fatwa factories ,call yourselves simply sunni(like eveyone else,instead of brelvi or maslak e fulan fulan) then you may have leg to stand on,nor will you then be painted with same brush as troublemaker brelvis,it works with everone else.




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Posted 13 July 2011 - 11:15 AM (#18) User is offline   blogger 

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View PostImran., on 13 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

[font="Garamond"][size="4"]I dont care where you've had it up to mate,the fact remains those who call themselves brelvi are the biggest fitna makers within the contemporary subcon. Ahle Sunnah Wa Jamah,they seem to have ready made fatwa for most other sunnis that dont follow their "maslak".


What is your definition of 'Brelvi'? and 'Maslak'?
Would I be termed a 'Brelvi' if I accept Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih as a Mujaddid or believe his works to be correct and in line with the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat?

Find me one scholar of the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat with roots in Pakistan/India/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka who is not proud of the association with Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih. Some of the issues listed by Imran are unique to a certain minority clan of extreme Rizvi scholars who have been refuted by many other so-called 'Brelvi' scholars. Some of the issues highlighted were mentioned by his predecessors nearly 70 years after Ala Hazrat's demise (these were never mentioned by Ala Hazrat himself) but some people mistakenly assume the verdicts originate from Ala Hazrat simply because they are delivered from the offspring of Ala Hazrat. 'Brelvi' is a term linked with Ala Hazrat NOT with any present day scholar in Bareilly Shareef, Gujranwala, Bradford or anywhere else worldwide.

Like it or not the term 'Brelvi' is used to identify the beliefs of an individual. You have to admit the labels 'Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat', 'Sunni' and 'Brelvi' are synonomous and refer to the same thing within the Sub Continent. I am not a mureed of a Rizvi Shaykh but I don't mind being called a 'Brelvi' as Ala Hazrat is a symbol of the Ahle Sunnah in the Sub Continent through which one's ideology is immediately identified and recognised. I may not accept every ruling of Ala Hazrat's but I agree and accept every single aspect of rulings concerning aqeedah - fundamental beliefs which in other words is the maslak of Ala Hazrat.

There are others that call themselves 'Sunni' or part of the 'Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat' however, they degrade the staus of our beloved Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasllam and so 'Brelvi' distinguishes us from them. It seems, targetting our symbols of identity has become fashionable (slogans, maslaks ...).

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 12:28 PM (#19) User is offline   Brother_MGS 

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View PostAhle-Sunnah-Uprising, on 12 July 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

I dont see why you mudsling the "barelwi" title all the time. We are all indebted to people like Imam Ahmed Rida (RadiAllah anho), Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib (RadiAllah anho), Pir Jamat Ali Shah (RadiAllah anho). Today if there are some people who carry out slander and wrong actions under the barelwi title then why is it the whole barelwi name is taken in vain. In the same manner if a person who claims to be Jamaati etc and carries out slander or wrong actions then applying a shia tafdhili title to all Jamaatis should not be permitted.

Ive had it upto here when anything goes wrong you use the barelwi title, and (on the very very rare occasion) when its going good its Ahlus Sunnah!? As well as banning the Haq Sab/Char and the Pir wars, I also think the mention of barelwis should also be banned because lately few members on this site are very quick to point the finger and easily put the blame on the "barelwis" when the culprits have nothing to do with maslak-e-alahazrat. Most of the time a non-issue is just played up by the on-line equivalents of the maulvis out there, just to cause more divides in the Ummah.


The thing is could you please qoute a reference from Imam Ahmed Raza(ra) used the term Maslak-e-Ala Hazrat?
What about the classical scholars such as Imam Suyuti(ra), Pir Sayyid Mehr Ali Shah(ra), Imam Razi(ra), Mujaddid alif Sani(ra), The Muhaddiths of Dehli...weren't they part of the Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat. Maslak-e-Ala Hazrat narrows this Aqeedah, to just we believe what one Imam believed.

As Imam Ahmed Raza(ra) once beautifully said.... 'Meh gadaa houn apneh kareem ka mera deen par e nan nahi'

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:21 PM (#20) User is offline   blogger 

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View PostBrother_MGS, on 13 July 2011 - 12:28 PM, said:


Maslak-e-Ala Hazrat narrows this Aqeedah, to just we believe what one Imam believed.



You've got the wrong end of the stick completey, Ala Hazrat Rehmatullah Alaih's maslak ecompasses all the past Imams and Shaykhs of the Ahle Sunnah. It rather acts as a good way to quickly summarise the beliefs and personalities that are accepted and rejected by us as followers of the Ahle Sunnah.

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