shaheensa, on 16 June 2011 - 03:06 AM, said:
shahid bhai I wrote a detaild answer but when I preview that then after cant find my post , with new updates I didnt know more than half how to send posts , I will try to write post again if I got chance .
You are entitled to your own opinions but to answer some of your questions, like celebration was prearranged, etc, and there was politics. First you have to ask yourself who held better Islamic adab, who did not adhere to the written agreed upon and signed conditions? The most disappointing thing for us as ahl sunna is that a person who considers himself a mufti came with the intentions of not honoring the written agreement and conditions of debate, and admitted himself to it. You can imagine the state of Imaan of a person who writes an agreement with an intention to not honor it, and then dishonors it with pride.I know of two such people now who did such a deceptive contract and are proud of it and consider it their smartness. One is Mr. Zardari, the president of Pakistan, the other is Mr Abid Jalali who claims himself to be upholder of muslik Alahahzat, Imam Ahmed Raza Barelvi.He himself admitted that the written agreement was a ploy to get shah ji to to get face to face with me. He and his teacher Irfan Shah has been continuing a witch hunt against Mufakkir-e-Islam and they wanted to spread their propaganda of hate against him by throwing all allegations against him and not letting him speak when he wants to express himself. For that reason he was throwing allegations against him which were all irrelevant to the debate and he knew that those allegations have no reality for that reason he kept making noise when muffakir-e-Islam wanted to speak. It is grace of Allah that muffakire Islam did not fell pray to their ploy and remained focused on the topic and Allah gave him sabar to handle himself with dignity and manners. Allah exposed the liers, decievers, and insulters in the process.The truth is manifest now.
Who is responsible for the witch hunt against muffakire Islam, are those who are jealous of his knowledge and status and Pir Irfan Shah is leading them. If you want to know about the history then you have to go back to the history of Ahlus Sunna waljamat in U.K. It was established in early eighties and Muffakir-e-Islam was its patron (Sarparast) and all ahl sunnah considered him as their top scholar. he was the undisputed leader of ulmae ahl sunnat in U.K for about 20+ years. Irfan Shah and others were conspiring against Muffakir-e- Islam but could not dare to face him, as they were not at par with him in knowledge, staus and respect among the scholars of Ahl Sunnah in U.K and Pakistan. He was not approving the blanket Takfir of Shia, Dewbandis, Tablighees, and Salafis which Irfan Shah and other takfeer happy barelvi ulma were advancing. Muffakkire Islam viewed such extreme views not part of Ahl Sunna beliefs. In the past, ulmae Ahl sunnat had not made a blanket takfeer of even Kharjis who are much worse than the mentioned sects. Alahazrat had made a takfir of 5 elder dewbandis but he had also not a blanket takfir of all dewbandis.
Two or three years back there was a tape posted on the youtube by Dewbandis,to portray the internal fight between barelvis, where Mufakireislam is explaining his differences with the slogan of Nahara Tehqiq, and Pir Irfan Shah is expressing about his jealousy for Mufakkire Islam and mentions about revolting against him. He is openly promising the audience that he will face Muffakire islam and people should support him and he is complaining about his co conspirators that they promised him to be with him in this context but they have backed down. That tape is an open admission of him for causing the split in Ahl sunnah waljamah (some time around 2005-2006). That tape was also on Yanabi.com and those who are interested in knowing who is causing fitnah in Ahl sunnat must watch that tape. This was all for the self promotion, as in the presence of Mufakkire Islam no body was going to accept Pir Irfan Shah as the leader. Since then the witch hunt against Muffakire Islam continues. Irfan Shah could never face Muffakire Islam but kept others instigating against him. Mr Jalali is a student of Irfan Shah,and Irfan Shah went to Pakistan from U.K after Mufakireislam left for Pakistan and was involved in all the planning of the debate.His supporters in U.K.were expecting that he will sit in the debate but since Irfan shah camp knew from the speech that Mufakkire islam delivered in the Haq Sub Yar Conference in U.K that they had no chance to refute him as he had given references from four different ayah's of Quran for haq sub yar, which could not be refuted (tape is on yanabi.com). On the other hand, they had only a fabricated narration from Ikrimah(the Khariji) to support haq char yar, so academically they had no chance to prove their stance. I am sure even if they spend rest of their lives, they may not prove their stance of existence of such slogan before what Mufakkire Islam claimed. Mufakkire Islam is very thorough in his research (tehqeeq) and very bold in stating the truth and is careful about the accuracy of his statements. He was confident of being on Haq and was sincere in an academic debate. He had announced that any senior member of their group wanted to debate he may join in, as he never challenges anybody personally but is ready for the challenges of others. Earlier Irfan Shah had challenged in a taped conversation (tape is on yanabi.com) without naming Muffakire Islam that if anybody talks about afzaliat of Ali in any respect or opposes haq char yar slogan in Southern Punjab or Lahore, he may not come alive from there. He was attacking the positions that Mufakkire islam had on these issues. Then Mufakkir e Islam made his addresses in Data Darbar Lahore, and in Bikki shareef when he went to Pakistan last year. The Bikki Shareef is the town of Irfan Shah near mandi Bahaudin and Irfan Shah was there in Pakistan at that time and left his town two days before the speech of Mufakkire Islam in his home town. He felt disgraced as Mufakkire Islam was invited to speak in his home town and he could do nothing more than run away in spite of his tall claims in U.K.(that speech is on Yanabi.com too). Irfan Shah made hate speeches against Dr.Tahir-ul-qadri and others and used abusive language from minbere rasool for many ulma he opposed, declaring them deviant. However, his hate propaganda machine is continually busy against Muffakire Islam. The fitna monger website is constantly busy in portaying muffakire islam as deviant by distorting the facts. They are so jealous of his status that now they want to call Irfan Shah as Mufakkire Islam and they have made a Muffakireislam.net, where they post his speeches to compete with Muffakire Islam Syed Abdul Qadir Gilani.
The fact of the matter is that Dewbandis started this slogan as Nahra-e-khalafat and responded with Haq Char Yar. Sunnis had only three nahras for generations,nara takbir, nara e risalat and nahra haidri. Now without giving much thought, some sunnis followed it by just changing the first part and calling it nahra e tehqeeq and responded with haq char yar. When Mufakkireislam heard it he objected to it, he said, if your response is for Khulfae rashdeen they are five as Imam Hasan (may Allah be pleased with him)is included in it. Dewbandi may not consider him khalifa rashid but it is a proper sunni belief that he is khalifa e rashid. If you response is for their being sahabi then all sahaba are Haq. The movement was also aimed at deleting Nahra haidri, (it is on tapes that Irfan Shah is telling the audience that Nahra haidri is nahra of Jahils, other barelvi scholars are also on record for stopping nahra haidri). Mufakkire Islam spoke on this issue and proved that Rasool Allah, Sahaba and angels pronounced the slogan of Ali on many occassions. In the process of expressing himself forcefully on these issues, he did step on some egos which were progressing the slogan of haq char yar. He was also bold enough to expose those who were using syed title and were not from syed families. Irfan Shah and company were already conspiring against him, they found the opportunity to make the move and started exploiting the situation and caused the split among the ahl sunnah in U.K. This is the brief account of differences between the two groups from my recollection.
As far as celebration is concerned, Muffakire Islam stayed at the same place where Munazra was held. He was the host there and he showed the adab to see off Mr Jajali, inspite of his unruly behavior and lack of islamic adab. He called Zabair Shah (one of the five persons from MuffakireIslam side) as "kuttey". He insulted and ridiculed mufti Suliman saheb who was the referee in debate by constantly not listening to his orders and by calling him something like "ye bechare kia boilen ge yet to bohrhay hain". He made cheap remarks throughout the munazara and his companions were making faces to Muffakire Islam. As I am told by some one who was among the crowd outside the munazra that Mufti Suleman saheb left before munazara ended. When people outside asked him why he is leaving? He said that Mr Jalali is not listening to him what he would do by staying there (not the exact words but the sense was the same). Inspite of his ill behavior Muffakire Islam went to see him off to his car.
Muffakire Islam was addressing from the same place where munazara was held and those people who were there were in that house during munazra, listening it from outside the room. So there was no prearranged celebration. The main difference between him and others was that he was sincere in conducting an academic debate and the other party did not want to debate academically but to slander him. They violated all rules of munazara and kept slandering him with lies and deceptions. They brought boxes of books to fake that they have so much evidence, but did not want to touch the issue academically. When Mr. Jalali was forced to present his evidence, his knowledge was exposed. He could not read the Arabic right and when was asked to correct it he could not. When he was asked what is the tense (segha) of the misread sentence, he had no clue. During all the time, except for 10 minutes when mufti Suleman saheb forced him to remain silent during the time of Mufakire Islam, he kept speaking with disregards to all civilized manner and kept making noise so that people may not listen to Muffakire Islam and truth in this matter may not become manifest to them. Everybody can see that he was totally dishonest in his intentions of conducting an academic debate on agreed upon topic and terms and conditions. Mufakkire Islam had the right to declare a moral and academic victory but the other side has also declared victory for the success of their deception and slandering and according to their website, a victory celebration was made in Rawalpindi that night in which Abid Jalali and Irfan Shah participated and a tape of Abad Jalai declaring the victory is already on the internet.
anyone can tell me how can I go back to the posts after preview because by doing that I lost the reply.
thankyou once again you gave the detailed answer but not the question I asked . You give few years detailed that what is happening between two pirs I wrote a detailed reply but lost by seeing the preview.
after reading your post many questions came and I asked them but you lucky that post lost.
Can I ask you one simple question if the both pirs are brothrs by ahlebait blood why they arguing with each other , why a Sayyed is against the other Sayyed , they can sort that all between and work together for the ummah .You wrote that Irfan shah never can face pir qadir sahub so why he accept munzairha with his student he could ask them that "I will have only munazirha with Irfan shah."
and as you mentioned that Irfan shah's friends wants to call him muffaiker let them call if there is no exam or nomination involed and the titles comes from murreeds and friends and family then why object , there are many other muffaikers in pakistan uk if they add him I dont think anything goes wrong.
I dont think we can call someone muffakir as he or she does work for years ,no that again one can have this title if he got that type of knowledge degree or nominations etc.
and at same time there can be many muffakirs or no muffakir.