[Tahir-Riaz]

[seeker]

I didn't quite catch all of that, what ayah is he referring to and is he ACTUALLY saying there's a grammatical error?

[objective-enquirer]

OMG! this man would make such a bold claim just because he cannot answer a grammatical question about the Qur'an so he says at 39 'nahv ka kalima hum ne nahin parda, nahv ka qaida wahan ake ruk jate hain jahan quran ki baat hoti hai'  we have not read the kalima of nahv/grammar, the grammar principles stop when we talk about the Quran'

that is what the kafir oreintalists say about the Quran. their argument that you claim Quran to be a miracle yet there are grammatical errors. just google it and you will find it.

irfan shah saab is refering to verse number 48:10 to be UNGRAMMATICAL. exactly as non-muslim christian missionaries present it.

the man instead of reading up and finding out that there is not an ERROR grammatically in the Qur'an but rather there are two options here in light of grammar. for example, the dhamair are mabni and it could be read alayhulla or alayhilla both are jawazi qaida. more can be said but to SAY THAT GRAMMAR PRINCIPLES STOP WHEN IT COMES TO THE QURAN is EXACTLY what the kuffar say when they try to prove that Quran has grammatical errors in it.

that ABSOLUTELY unacceptable. The Quran is the source for grammar, there is nothing in the Quran that goes against grammar. only jahils and kafirs would say such a thing.

I am shocked at what the guy is saying. it has grave consequences. it fuels the non-muslim onslaught against the QUran. below is what they say about it.

 

Quote

Muslims do believe that the Qur'an is a literary miracle and that it is unmatched among any other literature. It is not a human masterpiece but a divine miracle, where every letter and dot was revealed from heaven, with no difference between what was revealed and what we have in our hands. ....Muslims claim the Qur'an not just to be a human literary masterpiece, but a divine literary miracle. But this claim does not square with the facts. For the Qur'an which we have in our hands contains obvious grammatical errors which is plain to see for all who know Arabic.

 

the claims of missionaries, orientalists and irfan shah are based on NOT understanding in depth the grammatical structures correctly hence making the the most damaging claims to Islam's authenticity by saying that there are things in it that go against the principles of grammar.

this has nothing to do with our personal differences but rather irfan shah saab should do tauba and align himself with the muslims on this issue. just because you do not have a grammatical answer to a grammatical question, it does not mean that you go and claim that Quranic verse number 48:10 is ungrammatical so just like this ungrammatical and is in the Quran, similarly, this hadith has certain grammar therefore we are not bound by grammar.

all I have to say is that there are a number of grammatical responses to the verse and to say that it is ungrammatical is saying the same thing as the kuffar say in the above quote. and many have cited the example as irfan shah saab does being ungrammatical, astaghfirulla. this is the most shameful thing i have heard from him just because he cant answer, he questions the grammatical relaibility of the Quran.

[Hamzah]

Quote

objective enquirer (05.01.2011)

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this is the most shameful thing i have heard from him just because he cant answer, he questions the grammatical relaibility of the Quran.

I think you are making very unfair and inccacurate suggestions in your post and in this thread title.  No where in the above video does he question the grammatical reliability of the Quran. His point is that even nahw rules do not have the abilitiy to change the finality of the reading and message of the Holy Quran. They are two different points.

 

[objective-enquirer]

no brother hamzah,  he is citing an ayah and saying that grammatical rules do not apply to this verse 48:10. whereas, there is nothing in the Quran that has grammatical errors. the grammar itself is based and verified by the Quran. if nahv rules do not apply then what does that mean? why cite an example which goes against nahv, according to him?



 

[Bilal_23]

Irfan shah is right in this clip. He is saying that grammer should follow Quran not other way around. I think some people just discredit Shah Sahib without any valid reason. We have to accept that he is knowledgable man. We can question his way of dealing with other ulema but he is a qualified man. May Allah gives us hikmat. aameen

[Tahir-Riaz]

Quote

Bilal_23 (05.01.2011)

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Irfan shah is right in this clip. He is saying that grammer should follow Quran not other way around. I think some people just discredit Shah Sahib without any valid reason. We have to accept that he is knowledgable man. We can question his way of dealing with other ulema but he is a qualified man. May Allah gives us hikmat. aameen

Do you know that all grammar is driven from the Holy Quraan? How can Quraan not comply with its own grammar? Is Quraan above its own grammar? It's a paradox mate. There are no grammatical errors in the Holy Quraan!

[YaNabi-Chemist]

This needs to be clarified with him until we can conclude any "concession" on his part - this is after all a serious allegation. Otherwise, we are acting no differently to other nut-jobs out there posting videos on the internet. 

[objective-enquirer]

Quote

YaNabi Chemist (06.01.2011)

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This needs to be clarified with him until we can conclude any "concession" on his part - this is after all a serious allegation. Otherwise, we are acting no differently to other nut-jobs out there posting videos on the internet. 

the fact is that he cites some examples, one in this clip, to justify the point that this does not add up according to grammatical rules. he says: nahv ka qaida kiya hai?  alayhulla or alayhilla?...we all know that in 48:10 it is alayhulla and not alayhilla. he is saying that this according to grammar should have been alayhilla but actually it is alayhulla in the Qur'an. then he later gives another example in the full speech about arjulakum or arjulikum etc.

the man has lost the plot, frankly, when he has no answer to a grammatical argument then he goes and gives examples where Quran, according to him, is UNGrammatical.

do you guys notice, a TOTAL silence from all his followers, on all forums? the fact of the matter is that the only way this could be replied to is to agree with him that there is UNGRAMMATICAL things in the QUran otherwise, the correct position is that this man would not even spare the Quran for settling his personal ideas. i am sorry to write these things but i cannot remain silent on people calling and citing examples from Quran that here is an example of Quran being UNGRAMMATICAL.

just google the issue and you will find countless christian misionaries and orientalists listing examples where according to them Quran is UNGRAMMATICAL. the above example by irafan shah saab has also been cited by christians in their books.

no excuse. simple thing is for irafan shah saab to admit his mistake in this regard and if he does not understand grammar then the Ulama will teach him the grammar of this verse.

 

 

[Tahir-Riaz]

Quote

YaNabi Chemist (06.01.2011)

---

This needs to be clarified with him until we can conclude any "concession" on his part - this is after all a serious allegation. Otherwise, we are acting no differently to other nut-jobs out there posting videos on the internet. 

Dos the Holy Quran have grammatical errors?

[servant-of-the-servants]

ARABIC GRAMMAR MY FAVOURITE SUBJECT, I AM LIKE A CHILD WHO HAS JUST SEEN SOME SWEEETS WHEN IT COMES TO ARABIC GRAMMAR

I THINK THE BROTHER WHO SAID THIS IS KUFR IS GOING A BIT EXTREME TO SAY THE LEAST

HOWEVER REGARDING THE GRAMMAR ISSUE, A BETTER EXPLANATION WOULD BE THAT ARABIC GRAMMAR, ILM UL NAHW (SYNTAX) IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM IS DERIVED FROM THE HOLY QURAN. THOSE WHO ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE GREAT GRAMMARIANS (WE ALL SHOULD BE..?) WHEN THE ULAMA HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE SHAWAAID (PROOF OR EVIDENCE FOR A GRAMMAR RULE) THEY HAVE USED THE HOLY QURAN AS THEIR ULTIMATE PROOF FOR A GRAMMAR RULE AND SECOND TO THIS IS CLASSICAL ARABIC POETRY, TAKE IBN HISHAAM'S SHURUTH UL DHAHIB FI MARIFATI AL-KALAMI AL-ARABI AS A PERFECT EXAMPLE, ROUNDING OF EVERY RULE OF GRAMMAR WITH A VERSE OF THE HOLY QURAN AS EVIDENCE FOR ITS USE

THEREFORE AS MR NAIK SAID THE HOLY QURAN IS THE ULTIMATE SOURCE OF ARABIC GRAMMAR, REGARDING THE PARTICULAR AYAH SHAH SAAHIB RECITED, AS ONE BROTHER RIGHTLY SAID THERE ARE TWO OPINIONS REGARDING THE PRONOUN, WHETHER IT IS DECLINABLE OR UNDECLINABLE, (MABNI OR MURAB) SHAH SAAHIB RIGHTLY SAID THAT ACCORDING TO IMAM HAFS RECITATION (ONE OF THE 10 WAYS TO RECITE THE HOLY QURAN) WE RECITE THE PRONOUN AS "HU", WHICH GOES AGAINST THE NORM BUT NOT AGAINST ARABIC GRAMMAR, THE PROOF FOR THIS IS THAT ALL THE OTHER RECITATIONS OF THE HOLY QURAN RECITE THE PRONOUN AS "HE" AND THIS IS THE REASON IT IS PERMISSBALE TO RECITE EITHER WAY


IT IS AMAZING THAT MR NAIK QUOTES AL-ZAMAKHSHARI, EVEN THOUGH MR NAIK WOULD NOT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT WHAT AL-ZAMAKHSHRI WROTE, IMAGINE A MAN WHO HAS NOT STUDIED MATHS OR PHYSICS QUOTING AND ANALYSING EINSTEIN'S THEORIES, HOWEVER MUCH I DISLIKE HIM, AS I DO, HE GAVE A GOOD RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION ALBEIT A AMATUER ANSWER, AMAZING HOW COMMON SENSE CAN MAKE UP FOR A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE

[objective-enquirer]

it is getting worse day by day. the reply by maulana anasr qadri sahib is that 'iss ayat mein nahv/grammar ke qaiday ko torda gaya hai'

astaghfirulla! he says that rules of grammar have be broken in this ayah!!! check youtube. if maulana irfan shah saab has said something out of josh e khitabat then after reflection he should say I made a mistake by saying that there is grammatical mistakes in the Qur'an.

what surprises me is that these people do not have a clue about grammar itself. May Allah(s) guide these people. why cant they quote a single tafsir in which it says: there are grammatical errors in the Qur'an? or in this ayah the rules of grammar have been put aside? for the very fact that they will not be able to present a single mufassir saying that: 'nahv ke qaiday to torda gaya hai' rules of grammar have been broken'

Astaghfirulla!  You cannot reply to a grammatical argument by the Hujjat of our times so what do you do? just because you do not have a grammatical answer, you go and FIND grammatical errors in the Qur'an and then say that GRAMMAR...what grammar? the Quran also has grammatical errors!!

Only we can say: THERE ARE CATEGORICALLY NO GRAMMATICAL ERRORS IN THE QURAN.

 

whereas you will say most things are grammatical but there are ungrammatical things in the Quran. all because you dont know grammar and to hide it, you say look Quran also has ungrammatical things in it. both things are grammatical in that verse because it is jawazi qaida and not wujubi.

 

[objective-enquirer]

the simple fact remains:  maulana irfan shah sahib and maulana ansar qadri sahib have clearly said that there are grammatical errors in the Quran; that rules of grammar have been broken/troda gaya hai.

this is what the christian missionaries and orientalists claim. just google it. you are desperately stuck. simple thing is to admit that it was a mistake to  say that Quran has grammar mistakes. grammar rules have been violated in the Quran is what you are saying, explicitly.

even you know it. ask those learned brothers from syria and SBT (your funding source and patrons) to say that the grammar rules have been broken in the Qur'an. can you produce from your own english speaking guys that grammar rules have been broken in the Quran???

you cant because we may disagree with them in many things but here we do not because it is a very serious matter. keep making excuses!

grammatical errors in the Qur'an! imagine if someone else had said it..you will create the most fitna like your role model from siffin! your failure to back the statement that grammar rules were violated in the Quran from any tafsir tells you that Hazrat Mufakir al-Islam is like Imam Ali(a) and Maulana Irfan shah sahib is like Hazrat Muawiya bin abi sufyan®. both have great status and pious. but when the questions came about Islam from the Romans then who ansewred them? again in todays age if the Roman christians ask the questions about the grammar of the Quran then you will go on your knees and say yes, there are ungrammatical things in the Quran but the Hujjat would there are NO ERRORS in the Quran. it is the infallible word of God. it is a miracle and miracles do not have errors. miracles mein qaida ko torda nahin jaata!!

your edited clips would not work to deceive. anyone can view the whole to see in the next seconds that you are a liar! after all that is the trait of liars mentioned in the Quran. the non-muslims making fitna on internet and in their books about Quran having violated grammatical rules would have two muslims scholars as supporting evidence for their claims. they would say it is not only us but in the entire history of Islam they would only produce two scholars: maulana irfan shah sahib and maulana ansar al-qadri sahib saying that Quran has broken the grammatical rules!

[AbilAbbasalRidhawi]

objective-enquirer, on 05 January 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

OMG! this man would make such a bold claim just because he cannot answer a grammatical question about the Qur'an so he says at 39 'nahv ka kalima hum ne nahin parda, nahv ka qaida wahan ake ruk jate hain jahan quran ki baat hoti hai' we have not read the kalima of nahv/grammar, the grammar principles stop when we talk about the Quran'

that is what the kafir oreintalists say about the Quran. their argument that you claim Quran to be a miracle yet there are grammatical errors. just google it and you will find it.

irfan shah saab is refering to verse number 48:10 to be UNGRAMMATICAL. exactly as non-muslim christian missionaries present it.

the man instead of reading up and finding out that there is not an ERROR grammatically in the Qur'an but rather there are two options here in light of grammar. for example, the dhamair are mabni and it could be read alayhulla or alayhilla both are jawazi qaida. more can be said but to SAY THAT GRAMMAR PRINCIPLES STOP WHEN IT COMES TO THE QURAN is EXACTLY what the kuffar say when they try to prove that Quran has grammatical errors in it.

that ABSOLUTELY unacceptable. The Quran is the source for grammar, there is nothing in the Quran that goes against grammar. only jahils and kafirs would say such a thing.

I am shocked at what the guy is saying. it has grave consequences. it fuels the non-muslim onslaught against the QUran. below is what they say about it.





the claims of missionaries, orientalists and irfan shah are based on NOT understanding in depth the grammatical structures correctly hence making the the most damaging claims to Islam's authenticity by saying that there are things in it that go against the principles of grammar.

this has nothing to do with our personal differences but rather irfan shah saab should do tauba and align himself with the muslims on this issue. just because you do not have a grammatical answer to a grammatical question, it does not mean that you go and claim that Quranic verse number 48:10 is ungrammatical so just like this ungrammatical and is in the Quran, similarly, this hadith has certain grammar therefore we are not bound by grammar.

all I have to say is that there are a number of grammatical responses to the verse and to say that it is ungrammatical is saying the same thing as the kuffar say in the above quote. and many have cited the example as irfan shah saab does being ungrammatical, astaghfirulla. this is the most shameful thing i have heard from him just because he cant answer, he questions the grammatical relaibility of the Quran.

The amazing point of this stupidity wrapped in the false garment of an "intellectual" rant (read stupidity/sophistry) is as follows



1) Purposely editing and manipulating Qibla Shah Sahib's words

2) Then going on to make false accusations about Qibla Shah Sahib

3) Then making false assumptions based on the words of Qibla Shah Sahib.

What ever happened to Siyaq wa al-sabaq? Or did ************* not teach you that in your "Super-Mufti" lessons in Walthamstow?

Wa Allahu ta`ala `alam wa `ilmuhu atam

[AbilAbbasalRidhawi]

SunniSunaiForum, on 08 January 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

It is clear kufr! Nothing to clarify.

He is worse than wahabis who say Prophet SAW can make mistakes, this guy as usual thought he should say something 'better' to get noticed!

Firstly, to do takfir, one has to have the following conditions met

1) kalam
2) mutakallim
3) takallam

To do takfir is a very big deal and honestly, we don't do takfir of *********** but I've seen followers of *********** do takfir
of Hadrat Qibla Pir Sayyid Irfan Shah hafizahullah

The kalam/ibarah that you have presented is incomplete and lacks any type of objective analysis and also doesn't
look at any of the other possiblities of meanings of Hadrat Qibla Shah Sahib's words. Had you had any grounding in the Islamic sciences (such as kalam or `aqidah), you would know that it is obvious that what Hadrat Qibla Shah Sahib is saying is that the rules of Nahw follow the Qur`an and not vice-versa and that in fact, he has not questioned the grammar of the Qur`an.

Wa Allahu `alam wa ilmuh atam.

Wa salam alaykum wa rahmatullah

[Qadri-Jilani]

"nahv ka kalima hum ne nahin parda"

haqeeqatan esa hi lag tha hei ka aap nei nahw ka kalima nahin para

(The above is for my brothers who have studied some nahw)

[Naeemia]

AbilAbbasalRidhawi, on 28 May 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:

The amazing point of this stupidity wrapped in the false garment of an "intellectual" rant (read stupidity/sophistry) is as follows



1) Purposely editing and manipulating Qibla Shah Sahib's words

2) Then going on to make false accusations about Qibla Shah Sahib

3) Then making false assumptions based on the words of Qibla Shah Sahib.

What ever happened to Siyaq wa al-sabaq? Or did ************* not teach you that in your "Super-Mufti" lessons in Walthamstow?

Wa Allahu ta`ala `alam wa `ilmuhu atam

The same is done by some Barailvi brothers on youtube. They paste 2min -3min videos of Hazrat Pir Abdul Qadir Shah Sahab. They even do this with Hazrat Syed Riaz Hussain Shah ( Jamaat e Ahle Sunnat Pakistan).
And Irfan Shah Qibla did Takfir of Pir Karam Shah Al Azhari. What I dont get is, many of the ulema in the gatherings of Irfan Shah Sahib do attend lectures of Dr Tahir Ul Qadri (e.g. Mufti Abu Mansur Al Azhari, Mufti Gul Rehman etc etc), why is the Shah of HAQ quiet ?????
Then Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman ( Irfan Shah Sahib proclaims him to be his teacher, which he is not) sits with dEEobandis, even visited Darul Uloom Karachi for a healthy talk with Mufti Rafi Usmani and else. Why is the Shah of Haq Quiet ????
The Pir of Ghamkol attends the lectures of Dr Tahir ul Qadri ( yet Irfan Shah Sahib wont speak).
Pir Naseerudin used to visit gathers of other sects ( Why didn't the SHAH OF HAQ never spoke ill about him)

Why it took so many years for the Shah of HAQ to declare Pir Karam Shah Al Azhari Kafir ????

Mufti Syed Shujaat Ali Qadri ( teacher of Irfan Shah) invited Dr Tahir Ul Qadri in Darul Uloom Naeemia. He had good terms with scholars of other sects. Recently Allama Saeedi told me that Muhadith e Hazarvi also visited Naeemia. Why not call declare everyone Kafir ???


Pir Syed Haseenudin Shah attends the urs of Pir Karam Shah ! so does Pir Hashmi Miyan. So, if Pir Karam Shah is Kafir according to Irfan Shah Qibla, whould he utter a word for those who attend the urs of a Kafir ???


Allah o Akbar !

[hafiz-qadri]

AbilAbbasalRidhawi, on 28 May 2011 - 05:15 AM, said:

Firstly, to do takfir, one has to have the following conditions met

1) kalam
2) mutakallim
3) takallam

To do takfir is a very big deal and honestly, we don't do takfir of *********** but I've seen followers of *********** do takfir
of Hadrat Qibla Pir Sayyid Irfan Shah hafizahullah

The kalam/ibarah that you have presented is incomplete and lacks any type of objective analysis and also doesn't
look at any of the other possiblities of meanings of Hadrat Qibla Shah Sahib's words. Had you had any grounding in the Islamic sciences (such as kalam or `aqidah), you would know that it is obvious that what Hadrat Qibla Shah Sahib is saying is that the rules of Nahw follow the Qur`an and not vice-versa and that in fact, he has not questioned the grammar of the Qur`an.

Wa Allahu `alam wa ilmuh atam.

Wa salam alaykum wa rahmatullah

Aslaamualikum

Please don't insult decent Sunnis intelligence,by stating what Syed Irfan Shah Sahib means.This Molana Irfan Shah Sahib has broken every rule of Islam,I have never heard one speech of his where he actually Educates the Audience.How can you Justify his Slander,It's beyond believe.Let's just forget the Grammar of the Quran issue,Please explain his Abusive Behaviour and Ill Manners from the Mimbar e Rasool.Who has given him the right to call anyone a Kafir,who has given him the right to abuse fellow Ulema Kanjar,Dalla,Kuttiah and Haraamiah.Please explain what kind of Rules are applied when swearing from the Mimbar e Rasool.I personally would sit and watch Tom and Jerry with my baby Daughter,than to listen to Molana Irfan Shah Sahib's hate rate Rants.

HAQ SAB YAAR, 160 LASHES FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN DENIAL

[Brother_MGS]

Irfan Shah Mashadi has made his name in the kafir calling game. Apart from speaking against Ahle Sunnat Tourch holders, deobandis and salafis, what else has he done?

[Amin_Riaz]

hafiz-qadri, on 09 June 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

Aslaamualikum

Please don't insult decent Sunnis intelligence,by stating what Syed Irfan Shah Sahib means.This Molana Irfan Shah Sahib has broken every rule of Islam,I have never heard one speech of his where he actually Educates the Audience.How can you Justify his Slander,It's beyond believe.Let's just forget the Grammar of the Quran issue,Please explain his Abusive Behaviour and Ill Manners from the Mimbar e Rasool.Who has given him the right to call anyone a Kafir,who has given him the right to abuse fellow Ulema Kanjar,Dalla,Kuttiah and Haraamiah.Please explain what kind of Rules are applied when swearing from the Mimbar e Rasool.I personally would sit and watch Tom and Jerry with my baby Daughter,than to listen to Molana Irfan Shah Sahib's hate rate Rants.

HAQ SAB YAAR, 160 LASHES FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN DENIAL

HAQ SAB YAAR, 160 LASHES FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN DENIAL - this line is silly and idiotic.