Tawassul and Istighathah
Posted 14 August 2005 - 12:01 PM (#122)
The Prophet SAS said:
"Innahu la yustaghathu bi innama yustaghathu billah"
"Help is not sought with me, it is sought only with Allah."
(Suyuti, Jami` al-ahadith 496 #2694. Haythami in Majma` al-zawa'id: "Tabarani related it and its men are those of sound hadith )
Were we to suppose that the hadith is sound, it would be of the like of the Qur'anic verse, "You killed them not, but Allah killed them. You did not throw when you threw, but Allah threw" (Quran 8:17)
and the Prophet said, "I did not bear you but Allah bore you."[Bukhari and Muslim].
another evidence from Quranic Verse:
Verily, those who give Bai'a (pledge) to you (O Mohammed SAS) they are giving Bai'a to Allah. The Hand of Allah is over their hands. (Quran 48:10)
Thus the meaning of the hadith "Help is not sought with me" is:
"(Even if I am the one ostensibly being asked for help,) I am not the one being asked for help, in reality Allah Himself is being asked."
Another evidence is the Qur'anic verse: "Now the man of his own people appealed to him [Musa] against his foe" (28:15). Here Allah attributes a request for help to a creature who is asking someone other than Himself. This is sufficient evidence for the permissibility for asking someone other than Allah for help.
If all wahhabis or Najdis objects and says that the help being sought in these texts is from someone alive and who has power over his actions, the reply is that attributing the power to him if it is held to issue from him in a fashion independent of Divine assistance is the same as kufr, that is disbelief. And if it is only Allah's power to be a cause and means, then there is no difference between living and dead. Thus the recipient, alive or dead, possesses the miracle as a token of respect and honor. If the seeking of aid is not related to Allah literally and to someone else figuratively, the seeking of help is forbidden in either case.
Posted 14 August 2005 - 12:40 PM (#123)
|QUOTEOriginally posted by: abubakr rehman|
so brother in your opinion the hadith of saheeh muslim is weak??
|QUOTEOriginally posted by: Tahir Riaz|
I seriously doubt the accuracy of this translation and would have to verify, but lets take it on anyways.
Kaabay Kis Mun Se Jao Ge SR!
Sharam Tum Ko Magar Nahin Aati
The difference between the Mullah and Satan is that the latter is not a hypocrite!
[Secular Revolution - the artist formerly known as Sunni Revolution]
Posted 14 August 2005 - 02:18 PM (#124)
yes the british made clowns do not answer.
It is not worth speaking to him as he has not responded to what the brothers have said: also since you ignored my post i'll remind you again:
Ibn thaymiyyah in Sirat al-Mustaqim confirms that Muslims visited the Prophet's Grave and heard Salam from The Prophet to those who said said Salam to him . Not just the Prophet but even from the graves of Awliya Kiraam!
he also says Muslims visited the grave and asked for help, including asking for rain and asking for other needs from The Prophet himself.
he says not only asking from The Holy Prophet's grave in Masjid al-Nabwi but also from the graves of his Ahl-ul-Bayt, Sahaba and the Awliya!
and!! he says not just one incident or that this has been done rarely, but he says he is personally aware of this occuring MANY times!
Najdi where will you hide? You cannot run away from these statements of of Ibn Thaymiyyah discussing the pious Muslims visiting the Prophet's grave which has the Masjid al-Nabwi built around it.
ei biradar chu 'aqibat khakast, khaak shawesh az ankei khaak shawee
jarahat al-sinani laha'l-tiyamu ma yaltamu jarahat al-lisani
Posted 14 August 2005 - 05:10 PM (#125)
Why O Why are they prepared to label others as mushriks and not label ibn thaymiyyah a mushrik?
As stated by brother Qadri Jilni
Let me just remind you what your imam ibn thaymiyyah says:
"A man visited the Prophet's grave and complained of the drought during the year of drought whereopun he saw the Prophet who was bidding him to go to `Umar and command him to come out in the open, leading people into prayer for rain"
He also says:
"I am personally aware of MANY such incidents"
Straight after this, on the following page he says:
"The same holds also for a need which a man makes to the Prophet himself or to one of his Community [Ahl-e-Bayt, or Sahaba]"
Ibn Thaymiyah also says:
"some people heard a return of salam coming from the Prophet's grave or from the grave of other Awliya"
I Belive this thread should be coming to an end now theres no point in going over the same points over and over again
CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE POST A CONCLUSION TO THIS TOPIC WITH ABUBAKR REHMAN
POSTING A FINAL RESPONCE
THIS THREAD HAS BEEN VERY INFORMATIVE AND INSHALLAH WILL BENEFIT SUNNI MUSLIMS
ALSO CAN SOMEBODY TELL ABUBAKR REHMAN THAT WE DONT HATE HIM PERSONALLY, ONLY THE IDEA HE HAS ATTACHED HIMSELF TO, AND INSHALLAH BROTHERS LIKE HIM WILL ACCEPT AHLE SUNNAH WA JAMMAH, AND MAY ALLAH GUIDE HIM.
Posted 14 August 2005 - 06:28 PM (#126)
I have read these pages myself from his book, and the fact remains that he has said these things and acknowledges the above has happened and there is no way you can prove otherwise. Don't worry we are still not calling ibn thaymiyyah a sunni so the context of what he says might be deviating against Ahlus-Sunnah but he has narrated these things.
the fact of the matter is that you cannot take he has written such things which under any wahabi/salafi/deobandi manual is shirk, it's just that when ibn taymiyah says it, it is out of context, but when a Sunni says it, it is shirk?!?.
As has been shown in this thread and the references from Qur'an, Hadith and righteous scholars from 1400 years that the Sunnis have provided:
Albani and friends you have had no freinds in the entire history of Islam as you acknowledge yourself (you dont follow anyone) once you are refuted, beginning from Sahaba to the Salaf-us-Saliheen, including the four Imams, to Imam Bukhari, to the Awliya Allah, all the way down to Ibn Abdul Wahab Najdi.
Dont think i forgot the whole point of this, as well as rejecting all the above , this thread has proven once more that you do not follow the Prophet neither, as you have rejected the honorable status which Allah has blessed him and rejected his Hadith. that is why you are khwarjis - rejecters
YaNabi.com - defending the honour and status of the Beloved Prophet against the enemies of Islam.