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Shi'ism

Posted 20 June 2010 - 08:27 PM (#1) User is offline   Fatima-Hassan 

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Assalamo Alaikum

I want authentic references that can prove Shiites Muslims.

Thanks.

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 11:44 PM (#2) User is offline   Know-the-Ledge 

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Oh, you want to do you? I think you missed a word in there anyway!
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Posted 20 June 2010 - 11:47 PM (#3) User is offline   qalam 

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***edit: This is not an english language forum, keep it mind. (desert sheikh)
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Posted 21 June 2010 - 12:12 PM (#4) User is offline   Husayni 

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Quote

Fatima Hasan (20.06.2010)
Assalamo Alaikum

I want authentic references that can prove Shiites Muslims.

Thanks.


Can you prove they are not??
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If you want to understand the Qur'an you go to Ahlul Bayt, if you want to understand Ahlul Bayt you go to the Qur'an.

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 01:43 PM (#5) User is offline   Fatima-Hassan 

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I think I didn't miss any word. And not only grammar, my vocabulary is also too weak. I don't know where I made mistake in

Quote

I want authentic references that can prove Shiites Muslims.


I have read somewhere.

Quote

In any case I think we all have something to learn from you apart from good English.


So please tell me which sentences are correct.

Prove me wrong.
Prove me as wrong.

He calls himself great.
He calls himself as great.

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 01:55 PM (#6) User is offline   Fatima-Hassan 

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Quote

Ali Al-Hadi (21.06.2010)

Quote

Fatima Hasan (20.06.2010)
Assalamo Alaikum

I want authentic references that can prove Shiites Muslims.

Thanks.


Can you prove they are not??

Yes, Alhamdulillah I can.

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 03:43 PM (#7) User is offline   Husayni 

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Quote

Fatima Hasan (21.06.2010)

Quote

Ali Al-Hadi (21.06.2010)

Quote

Fatima Hasan (20.06.2010)
Assalamo Alaikum

I want authentic references that can prove Shiites Muslims.

Thanks.


Can you prove they are not??

Yes, Alhamdulillah I can.


There are over 500million shia's.Shiaism breaks up into 41sects.Now you telling me that you can prove each and everyone  are kaffir..I must say if that the case you are very brave because our Beloved Prophet(pbuh) warns us about calling someone a kaffir without any evidence

As long as one proclaims shahada then he has Iman!!!!Do you agree with this??

I dont understand the need for this thread.If you belive the all are not muslims then good for you.

Are you trying to prove to us that they are non muslims or to yourself?
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If you want to understand the Qur'an you go to Ahlul Bayt, if you want to understand Ahlul Bayt you go to the Qur'an.

Shaykh Sayyid Muhammad bin Yahya Al-Ninowy Al Husayni
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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:29 PM (#8) User is offline   Fatima-Hassan 

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Quote

Fatima Hasan (21.06.2010)
I think I didn't miss any word. And not only grammar, my vocabulary is also too weak. I don't know where I made mistake in

Quote

I want authentic references that can prove Shiites Muslims.


I have read somewhere.

Quote

In any case I think we all have something to learn from you apart from good English.


So please tell me which sentences are correct.

Prove me wrong.
Prove me as wrong.

He calls himself great.
He calls himself as great.


PS: Primary concern is to learn more about Islam, to learn English..... um mm maybe secondary. I don't have any complex that restrains me from telling the truth and accepting the truth, and hopefully will never have.

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:30 PM (#9) User is offline   Fatima-Hassan 

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In the beginning of Shi'ism, it had more than 70 sects. But now, many of those don't even exist. For details, see "Malal o Nahal". Their differences in beliefs can be read from "Tohfa e Isna Asharia". But the basic and main beliefs were same, that's why they all came under Shi'ism.

You talked about evidences, read "Tasfiyah Mabain Sunni o Shia" by "Pir Mehr Ali Shah" and "Irani Inqalab, Imam Khomeini Aur Shiat" by "Maulana Muhammad Manzoor Naumani". Reading these two books would be enough or most probably more than enough.

If you don't understand the need for this thread, then delete it.

I didn't try to prove anything to anyone. I just asked for the authentic references and evidences which you people didn't give or failed to give. No comments or replies please as I don't wanna argue with you or anyone else. And as I have already said you can delete this thread. But the books I mentioned for evidences are really too good and would be beneficial, if not for you then for others definitely.

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 03:27 PM (#10) User is offline   Husayni 

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Quote

Fatima Hasan (22.06.2010)
In the beginning of Shi'ism, it had more than 70 sects. But now, many of those don't even exist. For details, see "Malal o Nahal". Their differences in beliefs can be read from "Tohfa e Isna Asharia". But the basic and main beliefs were same, that's why they all came under Shi'ism.

You talked about evidences, read "Tasfiyah Mabain Sunni o Shia" by "Pir Mehr Ali Shah" and "Irani Inqalab, Imam Khomeini Aur Shiat" by "Maulana Muhammad Manzoor Naumani". Reading these two books would be enough or most probably more than enough.

If you don't understand the need for this thread, then delete it.

I didn't try to prove anything to anyone. I just asked for the authentic references and evidences which you people didn't give or failed to give. No comments or replies please as I don't wanna argue with you or anyone else. And as I have already said you can delete this thread. But the books I mentioned for evidences are really too good and would be beneficial, if not for you then for others definitely.


I just find it hard understand that we can brand about 500million shia's kaffir.

btw no one is arguing,we all just sharing our views.
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If you want to understand the Qur'an you go to Ahlul Bayt, if you want to understand Ahlul Bayt you go to the Qur'an.

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 04:20 PM (#11) User is offline   Tahir-Riaz 

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Quote

Fatima Hasan (22.06.2010)

If you don't understand the need for this thread, then delete it.


Dear sister Fatima Hasan can you please tell me how you will go about proving yourselves as a Muslimah?
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Posted 23 June 2010 - 06:16 PM (#12) User is offline   Desert-Sheikh 

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Fatima Hasan (22.06.2010)

I didn't try to prove anything to anyone. I just asked for the authentic references and evidences which you people didn't give or failed to give. No comments or replies please as I don't wanna argue with you or anyone else. And as I have already said you can delete this thread. But the books I mentioned for evidences are really too good and would be beneficial, if not for you then for others definitely.


It has appeared that you are very confuse about the topic that you started intentionally or unintentionally. You are demanding authentic references and evidence but do not want to argue, how would you confirm it? Whatever users post/reply, are you ready to accept it? Strange...
Rewrite your question carefully and briefly and discuss your points or concerns with other users, accept or reject their replies, agree or disagree, convince them or get convinced but all can be achieve with a discussion/replies/comments and argue.
PS: If you are just looking for a one line statement "Kafir, Kafir, Fullan Kafir", than you are at a wrong place. This is YaNabi.com not a Fatwa-factory. We are failed to provide xyz references because we hate to throw people out of Islam.
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Posted 23 June 2010 - 07:41 PM (#13) User is offline   Nemesis 

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Imam Abu al-Qasim ibn `Asakir narrates in Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari (p. 373-) with his chains:

1. >From Khaddash ibn `Iyash:

We were sitting in a circle in al-Kufa when a man among us said: "We were sitting with Abu Hurayra whereupon a young man passed by. A man sitting with us said: 'This is a Kafir from among the people of the Fire.' Abu Hurayra rose and went to speak with the young man, asking him: 'Who are you?' He replied: 'Son-and-so, son of So-and-so.' Abu Hurayra said: 'Allah have mercy on your father!' The young man was looking around, so he asked him: 'What are you looking for?' He replied: 'I have not prayed yet.' Abu Hurayra said: 'So you pray?' The young man replied: 'Subhan Allah!' Abu Hurayra: 'And you say Subhan Allah?' He said: 'La Ilaha illAllah!!' Abu Hurayra: 'And you say La Ilaha illAllah?' The young man said: 'I would prefer not to leave Salat even if I were given all there is on the face of the earth.' Abu Hurayra said: 'Allah have mercy on you. Allah have mercy on you. Allah have mercy on you.' Then he came back to his seat in the circle and said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say: "Whoever bears testimony against a Muslim of which the latter is not deserving, let him prepare for his seat in the Fire."'"

2. >From `Ubayd Allah ibn `Umar, from Nafi`:

A man said to Ibn `Umar: "I have a neighbor who bears witness against me that I commit shirk." He replied: "Say: 'La Ilaha illAllah,' you will make him a liar."

3. >From Sawwar ibn Shabib al-A`raji:

I was sitting in Ibn `Umar's house when a man came and said: "O Ibn `Umar! There are groups of people bearing witness against us and attributing to us kufr and shirk." Ibn `Umar replied: "Woe to you! Did you not say: 'La Ilaha IllAllah'?!" Whereupon the entire household began to say La Ilaha IllAllah until the house was shaking.

4. >From al-A`mash, from Abu Sufyan:

We came to see Jabir ibn `Abd Allah who lived in Makkah and resided with the Banu Fihr. A man asked him: "Did you [the Companions] use to call anyone from the People of the Qibla [i.e. Muslims], 'Mushrik'?" He replied: "I seek refuge in Allah." The man continued: "Did you call anyone from them 'Kafir'?" He said: "No.


The Fatwas: Look at the strictness with which we are warned not to pronounce someone a Kaafir. Hadrat Ibn Abideen says in his Radd al-Muhtar: "The Fatwa of Kufr is not given to a Muslim when his words have the possibility of being interpreted in better (Hasan) manner (not amounting to Kufr)".(vol 3/p.283)

above is a  answerer to a question by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad
"The mosques are our barracks, the minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, and the believers our soldiers"
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Posted 24 June 2010 - 09:41 PM (#14) User is offline   Fatima-Hassan 

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Those who believe that Shiites are not out of Islam should marry them. Or would be better agar apnay bachon ki kar dein tou.

What should one say and/or do to prove herself Muslimah? Tell me, and Insha ALLAH, I will say and/or do.

Can someone be or remain a Muslim just by saying La Elaha Illah? NO, ofcourse not. Beliefs will take someone to Heaven or Hell, not deeds.

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 09:42 PM (#15) User is offline   Fatima-Hassan 

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Desert Sheikh, please read it.

I know about Shiites since my childhood as they live in front of my home. I don't remember when I got to know that their beliefs are different from ours, their kalima has something additional in praise of Hazrat Ali R.A., but I do remember one thing that when I was six, I had noticed that there is a group of people whose azan timings are different.

It was my first week in madrasa when I was declared shia, Why? Because I did something additional while saying namaz. What was that? Sajda-e-Sehev.This intrigued me a lot to know more about shias. And Kokab Noorani Okarvi's lectures helped me very much.

I was in 9th when I met a shia (college) girl. I used to discuss shiism with her whenever we got time. But she never satisfied me.

When I read that Ala Hazrat Rahmatullahi Ta'ala Alaih used to call them them kafir, I believed him, but I got so much curious to know all those sound reasons behind it, just to get Yaqin-e-Kamil.

1st day at college and happened to meet a shia (wo bhi at college gate). She not only asked my name but of my all family. And guess what she asked... Yes, a typical question. Are you shia? (What the hell is wrong with them? Can't we have names like Fatima, Ali, Hasan etc?) Anyhow, I discussed with her the same thing for two years.

I had always heard from my family that they curse our blessed Sahaba Razi ALLAHu Ta'ala Unhum. I thought the reason for telling me this is probably to keep me away from them. So I wanted to hear the truth myself, of course for Yaqin-e-Kamil.

Then, another shia. And when I discussed shiism, eventually I got to know their reality, Alhamdulillah.

Then I read two books about shiism. "Tasfiyah Mabain Sunni o Shia" by "Pir Mehr Ali Shah" and "Irani Inqalab, Imam Khomeini Aur Shiat" by "Maulana Muhammad Manzoor Naumani". The latter one I gave to shias and they confirmed that all what is written in this book about our beliefs is correct. About few things they were confused, but confirmed later by asking their community heads.

But I have seen that people don't think that they are out of Islam. All those shias accepted the text about their beliefs just to annoy me (as I used to irritate them by requesting (no no... by forcing) them to discuss the things that irritated me)? Kya pata mai hi ghalat hoon? So I requested you people to give references in their favor. Because my hatred for them was getting worse every second.

I posted the topic because I wanted to discuss with you people. But here, your own team member asked me "Can you prove they are not?" I didn't like the way he asked and shared his views. So, after mentioning the books, I thought it would be better to leave this thread here. That's why I said to not reply. Okay, leave it and come to the point.

It was Sunday, I guess, when I posted this topic, and today is Friday. By some more discussions with other people, I got to know more about their reality.

Shias have linked every attribute of our Nabi SallALLAHu Ta'al Alahi Wa Aalihi Wa Sallam to Imams. And somewhere they have raised their rank above the rank of our Nabi SallALLAHu Ta'ala Alahi Wa Aalihi Wa Sallam. As they (Imams) used to be blessed with Mairaaj every Friday night, Astaghfirullah. When I asked what have you left specific to our Nabi SallALLAHu Ta'al Alahi Wa Aalihi Wa Sallam? I got answer: "Quran tou Unhi (SallALLAHu Ta'al Alahi Wa Aalihi Wa Sallam) pe nazil hua tha." Jaise koi ehsaan kia ho un logo ne. And what they believe about it, you can ask them or can read from the books.

Qadianis deny verse number 40 of Suratul Ahzaab and Shias verse  no. 9 of Suratul Hijr.

Now tell me, what should I call them? If I call them Muslims, it would be hypocrisy and Hell's lowest level is for hypocrites. And if I don't tell others about their "Asliat", then I would be at the lowest level of Iman.....

I know what I have heard, seen, read and perceived. You know what, they stink, and believe me it's true. And Alhamdulillah, my senses work good.

Wo sab jhootay hain and I hate lie
Wo sab munafiq hain and I hate hypocrisy
Wo sab ganday hain and I hate filth

All this hatred is not because of any kind of brainwashing.

Verily, Suratul Baqarah's 6th and 7th verses are for them.

PS: All those Shiites about whom I told, go to their majalis regularly and have a vast knowledge of their own fake books. I told this whole story because I don't need one line statement. I am not looking for any Fatwa from anywhere or anyone. By the way, who is Mufti here to issue a Fatwa?

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 10:01 PM (#16) User is offline   Imran. 

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Fatima Hasan (24.06.2010)
When I read that Ala Hazrat Rahmatullahi Ta'ala Alaih used to call them them kafir, I believed him, but I got so much curious to know all those sound reasons behind it, just to get Yaqin-e-Kamil.


Ala Hadrat breilly(ra) did not declare all shias kafir,infact he in fatawa razvya breaks them down into three categories,the first he declares kafirs,the second as heretical deviants but not kaafirs,the third he declares to be close to sunnis(bidatis only).


Quote

Then I read two books about shiism. "Tasfiyah Mabain Sunni o Shia" by "Pir Mehr Ali Shah"


Where in there does Ala Hadrat golravi(ra) declare them all as  kaafir(there is no fatwa of kufr in it at all as far as i know)?

Please let me know as i have that book in my possession,infact the book is not an expose of shiasm but rather a reconciliatory effort to end sunni/shia hatred and differences.

Manzoor nuamani is a deobandi himself,he should worry about his own clan and their aqeeda.
La Ilaha Ill Allah Muhammadur Rasool Allah
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Posted 24 June 2010 - 10:12 PM (#17) User is offline   Luhif 

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Shiites do talk a load of filth about blessed Companions Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar (Radiallaho Anhum Ajmaeen).They do not believe in Khilafah.They say that Khilafah can only be given to the family and deny the Khilafah of other companions.Now I dont know if it takes them out of the fold of Islam but it is definitely a grave sin.
"And that is the secret of this world. If you remove love of dunya from your heart, the dunya is yours for the taking. You can have the dunya because it’s in your hand and not in your heart" Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.
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Posted 24 June 2010 - 10:45 PM (#18) User is offline   Roaming-Soul 

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The only time one can issue fatwa of Kuffur is when someone blatently 'barks' kuffur. (and Not because you feel, think, heard etc)


Feel free to correct!
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Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:16 PM (#19) User is offline   Desert-Sheikh 

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Fatima Hasan (24.06.2010)
Desert Sheikh, please read it.

You have Kamil-Yaqin than what proof or evidences do you want?


As per your claims, you’ve personal experience about Shia’, their beliefs and books. And you have also read Ala Hazrat’s fatwa, Tasfiyah Mabain Sunni o Shia and Manzoor Nomani Sahib’s book (though devbandi write against shia just for their political agenda).


After Yaqin-e-Kamil, what kind of proofs are you looking for?


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Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:27 PM (#20) User is offline   Tahir-Riaz 

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Fatima Hasan (20.06.2010)
Assalamo Alaikum

I want authentic references that can prove Shiites Muslims.

Thanks.


Refute this one:


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