[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

You say that Prophets a.s. came straight one after the other, but what about the gap between Sayyidina 'Isa a.s. and Sayyidina Khaatam an Nabeeyeen a.s. Muhammad s.a.w.?

[Mystic]

Originally posted by: Syed Raziuddin Quadri

Assalamualikum, Dear brothers in Islam.
I would like to present before you all some of the things which are doing rounds in my mind.
If we take the Traditions in which Rasulullah said "after me there will be 12 caliphs and Imam and the 12th will be Imam Mahdi"
And if we interpret this Tradition such that Imam Ali is the first Imam and 11th Imam is Imam Hasan Al Askari and the 12th is Imam Mahdi(the awaited one) Ok. Now the problem of interpreting the tradition like this raises many questions, Like for e.g. shall we not include Hazrath Ghousul Azam Dastagir in the 12 Imams and if we include him Imam mahdi will become the 13th Imam. shias claim that the son of Imam Hasan Al Askari was also an Imam. and if we include him in the list then there will be 14 Imams.
and if we donot include Imam mehdi(the awaited one) considering as shias do he has already taken birth and will reappear in the end times then there will be 13 Imams including peerane peer
if we dont enlist Hazrath Ghousul Azam in the Imams list and also the son of Hazrath Imam Hasan Al Askari who's name was also mehdi then the list would come to 11 Imams and the one most awaited Imam will be the 12th imam, Imam Mahdi
So there is utter confusion
On the other hand if we consider the khulafa-e- Rashideen as the Imam and khalifah after Rasulullah and as He said there will be monarchy after 30 years of my departure, so we can infer from this that monarchy will be there untill Imam Mahdi comes. That means only 5 Imams have gone past that period of 30 years and the remaining one is Imam mehdi and in total only 6 Imams. Then where are the remaining 6 Imams.
so in this way also there is utter confusion.
One thing is for sure ALLAH and HIS MESSENGER KNOWS THE BEST.

Brother there is no proof that the 12th imam that the 12rs believe in actually exists. The 12rs claim that he is the imam of the time, but there has been not even a single contribution of this imam, so can the 12rs prove that this imam is an Imam ?
In order to be an imam of the time you have to contribute towards islam.

[ganjbaksh]

Originally posted by: Mansur Alam

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,You say that Prophets a.s. came straight one after the other, but what about the gap between Sayyidina 'Isa a.s. and Sayyidina Khaatam an Nabeeyeen a.s. Muhammad s.a.w.?

assalamualaikum

brother mansur thats a very good question and it exposes the shia belief that imams have to be right after one another. hazrat isa (AS) and sayyiduna rasulullah had a gap of roundabout 600 years between them so who was the GUIDE in that period. lets see what r shia brother says about it.


ya ali madad

wassalam

[sraziuddin30]

Assalamualikum, Brothers in islam,
                                             shias claim that world cannot exist without an Imam. Ok agreed. But that Imam doesnt neccessary be the son of Imam Hasan Al Askari who's name happens to be Mehdi and who is believed to be in ghiabatul kubra. An Imam could be any noble, humble and pious person living in the contemperory world and after he dies another person who fits the bill could become an Imam and replaces the earlier one. But to say that Imam is in ghaib doesnt really appeal to mind, because every one on this earth who has taken birth has died, except for Hazrath Isa who was lifted alive on to the heavens and which is  mentioned in the Quran and Ahadeeths, which forms the proof of him being alive (Zahiri Hayat).
one more thing Hazrath Idrees was also lifted on 4th heaven (Aasman) by Allah(swt) but later he was descended and died a natural death on earth.

[fayaz-halai]

Originally posted by:Hayder Ali
It is beautiful to see a sunni say Ya Ali Madad - the wahabis have influenced so many among the ummah it is difficult these days to see such things. I really respect some of the Sunnis on this forum for their love of the ahlul-bayt 
and it suprises me sometimes how little the disagreements are between the Shia madhab and some sects of ahlsunnah and yet how big they are made out to be.

Dear Hayder Ali a sunni is the one who says YAA Abu Bakr Madad,YAA Umar Madad,Yaa Uthman Madad,YAA ALI MADAD.And for your kind knowledge not some but every Sunni have love for the Ahlul-bayt and the one who does not have love for Ahle Bayt,he is not a sunni.

I dont think there is little disagreement between sunni and shia.Do you accept  Hazrat Abu Bakr,Hazrat Umar ,and Hazrat Uthman as Chaliphas??

[fayaz-halai]

Originally posted by: syed kamal alam

Originally posted by: Mansur AlamAs salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,You say that Prophets a.s. came straight one after the other, but what about the gap between Sayyidina 'Isa a.s. and Sayyidina Khaatam an Nabeeyeen a.s. Muhammad s.a.w.?assalamualaikumbrother mansur thats a very good question and it exposes the shia belief that imams have to be right after one another. hazrat isa (AS) and sayyiduna rasulullah had a gap of roundabout 600 years between them so who was the GUIDE in that period. lets see what r shia brother says about it.ya ali madadwassalam

Yes a good question and i too ask that why Allah says in the Holy Quraan:

The Holy Quran states: "We never punish until We have sent a Messenger."

This means that there existed nations and group of people amongst whom a guide or messenger was not sent.

[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

Ya Ameer ul mumineen wa Khaleefatul mutaqeen Sayyidina Abu Bakr as Siddeeq radhiAllahu 'anka Madad,

Brothers i've been debating shia for about 8 years now, and i have never got a proper answer for that, InshaaAllah i am looking forward to what hayder has to say. Then onto a few more questions inshaaAllah ta'ala .

[Hayder]

(1) Let me start with the shorter reply to Fayaz who asked if they were accepted as Caliphs. Im sure you know that they are not accepted as Caliphs because the Quran and the Sunnah doesn't appoint them and anything contradictory to the Quran and Sunnah is against the Shia school of thought.

Moreover, as I've explained and repeat again, a Caliph and Imam according to the Quran is selected by Allah (swt).

Imam Ali (as) was appointed on the day of the event of Ghadeer as the master of believers and the successor to the PRophet (saaw). This is undeniable.

(2) Let me just stress that the being of a guide for every nation is a Quranic concept and therefore a Shia one.

I have included Syed Rizvi's response to this question in my reply due to lack of time and it should be enough as a preliminary response. First of all, Imam means "a divine leader" appointed by Allah, subhanahu wa
ta'ala. An Imam can be a nabi, a rasul, or a successor of a Messenger of
God. For example, we can say that Ibrahim, Musa, Harun, Muhammad and 'Ali
(peace be upon them all) were Imams - the Quran specifically mentions that Ibraheem (as) was made an imam after his prophethood. However, Ibrahim, Musa and Muhammad
(s.a.w.) were Prophets and Messengers of God also; whereas, Harun was a
Prophet and a successor of Musa; but 'Ali (as) was not a prophet or a messenger of God, he was the successor of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).

Secondly, what Shi'ism believe on this issue is that at no time is the
earth without a "hujjat" of Allah. Hujjat means 'proof'; it is used to
describe a divinely appointed guide for the people. The hujjat can be a
prophet, a messenger, or his successor.

Thirdly, not all the prophets were sent for the entire mankind. The
nubuwwat of Prophet 'Isa (a.s.) was not universal; he was not sent for all
the people; he was sent only as a nabi for the Israelites. Apart from verses in the Quran, interestingly, for those of you who have dialogues with Christians, this is also confirmed by the statements of Jesus quoted in the present-day New
Testament where he says, "I have not been sent but to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." Therefore, we see that while the children of Israel followed
their prophets from the line of Ishãq bin Ibrahim (as), Ismail bin Ibrahim (as) was sent as
a prophet to the Arab people. Consequently, it was possible for an
Israelite to gain salvation by following Jesus while his Arab contemporary
could gain salvation by following Ismail and Ibrahim. (as)

Among the later prophets, only the nubuwwat of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.)
was for the entire human society as Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, says: "And
We have not send you but as a mercy for the universe." (21:107) "And We did
not send you but as a bringer of good news and as a warner for the people
altogether." (34:28)

So your question should be that who were the hujjats of God among the
Israelites after Jesus till the advent of Islam, and who were the hujjats
of God among the Arabs after Ismail till the advent of Islam.

The exact number and names of successors of Prophet Isa (as) until the Holy Prophet (saaw), I couldn't find in the short time I have but just like the name of all the Prophets can't be recalled i cannot recall these either.

However, I do recall the successor of Isa (as) being Shamoon - also known as Simon Peter in english.

But indeed there were guides from Allah(swt)
For example, Salman al-Farsi, in his journey from Zoroastrianism to
Christianity to Islam, was guided by a Christian holy man who gave him some
specific signs to look for in the person of the last Messenger of God who
he believed was to emerge during their time. And that is how Salman found
his way to Islam and Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).

Allah knows best.

[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

Hayder, let me put some questions to you.

Firstly, concerning the successor to 'Isa a.s., you say there were Imaams until Rasulullah s.a.w., yet how come we don't find any mention of these successors by Rasulullah s.a.w., or Rasulullah s.a.w. never met with the Imaam of that time because he surely must have been alive if Allah Jala wa 'Ala never leaves the earth without an Imaam in your sense. You can say that we don't have mention of the other Imaams by other Prophet's a.s., but my reply and the logical reply would be that we have the sayings of Rasulullah s.a.w. whereas we don't have any of the previous Prophet a.s. (apart from those which are from Al Quraan was Sunnah) and surely somewhere it would mention direct Imaam before Rasulullah s.a.w.!

Secondly, concerning Ibrahim a.s. becoming an Imaam in Al Quraan. Let's take a look at the verse inshaaAllah ta'ala,

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (Al Baqarah: 124)

I have chosen the translation which says Imaam in it on purpose so we can look at what the word in the context of this verse actually means. If we look at the shia concept of Imaamah it is one that is Spiritual and Political. Now the shia say that this verse shows that Sayyidina Ibraheem a.s. was a Prophet already then became an Imaam and therefore the position of Imaamah is higher than that of Prophet a.s. except Rasulullah s.a.w.. But if we look at the Sayyidina Ibraheem a.s. we can see that He a.s. was a Prophet and an Imaam according to the shia, whereas Imaam 'Ali a.s. was only an Imaam. Therefore who is better? One who holds two positions i.e. Sayyidina Ibraheem a.s. or a person who has one i.e. Sayyidina 'Ali a.s.? Of course the one who has two extremely important positions!

The next criticism of the shia interpretation is this. If we once again look at Sayyidina Ibraheem a.s., we see that He a.s. never gained political leadership. Allah s.w.t. never granted Him a.s. that. So therefore, the Imaamah that the shia are talking about, and the Imaamah that is mentioned in this verse are two different things. Do you think that Allah s.w.t. would promise something to Ibraheem a.s. and never give it to Him a.s.? Also, Ibraheem a.s. was already a Nabi a.s. so was already a Spiritual Leader! So if Ibraheem a.s. was already a spiritual leader, then what does the word in Al Quraan mean? From this we can translate that word Imaam in the verse to Leader. And how did Allah s.w.t. make Ibraheem a.s. a Leader? Allah Jala wa 'Ala made Ibraheem a.s. a Leader for all mankind after Him a.s. through test of learning Wudhu and Salaah etc!

We can go further than this and link it to the Imaamah of Sayyidina 'Ali a.s. and the rest of 'the shia Imaams' except the last who we differ with the shia over whether He a.s. is definitely alive or not. The shia say that the Imaamah of Sayyidina 'Ali a.s. started when Rasulullah s.a.w. left this world, but what Imaamah was that? It was not political because Sayyidina Abu Bakr r.a. was the first Khaleefah, and if they say it was spiritual, then Sayyidina 'Ali a.s. was a spiritual leader at the time on Rasulullah s.a.w. as well as many other Companions r.a. so it cannot be spiritual leadership? Also many of their other imaams were not political leaders so where is this Imaamah that Allah s.w.t. promised Them?

My Brothers and Sisters, We can argue all day about this hadith and that hadith and some say it is Saheeh and some say it is Da'eef etc, but let us and the shia debate over Al Quraan because we both agree that it is infallible, and whoever is right, then Al Quraan is on their side.

[raoraj75]

Originally posted by: Hayder Ali

On the 18th of Dhil Haj, in the final hajj of our holy Prophet (saaw) at ghadeer khum, with an audience of thousands of -people, he (saaw) announced the successorship of Imam Ali (as).So alhamdulillah, there is no problem.

Brother does "Maula" mean successor??

Wassalam.

[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

Wo wo wo wo, my brother in Islaam Kamran. Let hayder deal with what has already been said and inshaaAllah ta'ala ghadeer khumm is an easy topic to deal with.

Hayder, just incase you get mixed up and start talking about ghadeer khumm, please read over what i posted and inshaaAllah ta'ala tell me your views on that first.

Walhamdulillahi Rabbil 'alameen.

[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barkaatuh,

No reply hayder? See my brothers and sisters, you can argue about ahadith all you like and never really get anywhere, but when it comes to Al Quraan, which and we and them agree is 100% Saheeh, then it shows who is wrong very clearly and we know Al Quraan is with us Ahlus Sunnah wal Jam'a.

Walhamdulillahi Rabbil 'alameen.

[Hayder]

In the Name of Allah, the beneficient, the merciful
Alaykum Salam brother

A bit of patience brother - I've just had the time to answer your question but it is time for salat dhuhr soon so this post may not be complete.

(1) With regards to the successors of Isa (as), we do find mention of Shamoon - the successor of Isa(as). I have a reply to this but want a second opinion from a scholar and after consultation with some books, I will inshallah provide a better answer to this interesting matter.

However, with regards to the imam being on the earth - you are assuming this is a Shia concept alone.
In Sahih al Bukhari volume number 4, page number 437 and hadith number 658 about Imam al Mahdi [as] you will see the following:

The Prophet (s) said: "What would be your situation if the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is among you?"

This is exactly what the Shia believe - Imam Mahdi (as) is among us.

Allah (swt) says: "It is not for Allah to punish them while you are among them." (Quran 8:33)

The famous scholar sunni scholar Ibn Hajar Makki al Haythami in his Sawaiq al Muhriqah on page 513 & 514 explains the above verse and I quote:

"The Holy Prophet [s] has told the signs about his Ahlulbayt in these meanings, because just like Holy Prophet [s], they are amnesty for the inhabitants of earth as well. There are several hadiths on this topic, from amongst them we would like to cite a few.
...Ahmed in another hadith from Holy Prophet [s] recorded: "If the stars go away (i.e., become non-existent), the inhabitants of the heavens will be destroyed, and if my Ahlul-Bayt goes away (i.e., all die), the inhabitants of the earth will be destroyed".
In another tradition which Hakim has termed Sahih on the conditions of Shaykhain says: 'the stars help prevent the inhabitants of the earth from being drowned, and my Ahlul-Bayt is the protector of my community against disputes. Therefore, whichever groups among the Arabs opposes my Ahlul-Bayt, shall be split up by dissensions and will become (a party of) Satan.'"

This is why the demise of the twelfth Imam will bring the end of the world, and this is one of the reasons that he should be alive.

I'm sure you are aware of the concept of abdaal in the sunni school of thought- this is very similar to the concept of Hujjatullah in the Shia school of thought. Allama Suyuti and others have provided many hadeeth with regards to this and if you are in need of further sources then inshallah i will find them. But one question for you is this: According to your belief, where is the present day Abdaal for the sake of whom we are surviving?

There is also the famous hadeeths in both schools of thought:

"He who dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of Jahiliyah"

Who is the imam of your time?

"O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims. (3:102)

But this immamah is so important. Your scholar in his book Imamate Azmee, Allamah Taftazani interestingly states:

The Sahaba deemed the appointment of the Imam to be superior to the burial rituals of the Holy Prophet" Imamate Azmee page 19 by Taftazani


(The Prophet left begind two weighty things to guide us, the Quran and the Ahlul-bayt. However, the ahlu-sunnah have extremely few hadeeth from ahlul-bayt and have rejected the vast majority of these so indeed it will be difficult to use these great sources which the Prophet (saaw) left behind. We all believe in the Quran being Sahih, but you also have believe in 6 other "Sahih books" which the shia do not. But I can see why you do not want me to use the "sahih hadeeth" from there.

If you want to use Quranic verses only then this is fine. Let's use the Holy Quran - you are right, he whose beliefs agree with the Quran is truthful and he who's beliefs go against it are the liars.)

It is time of dhuhr so I'm leaving here but inshallah I will elaborate on Immamah from The Holy Quran later.

I am suprised at your comment on Ibraheem's (as) and that you state that his test was "wudhu salaat etc!" One of the greatest Prophets of Allah (saaw) and He tests him with tests that even teenagers these days are deemed too capable to be tested with. Brother, inshallah I will talk about this later and provide many more verses from the Quran.

I hope you have an open mind and are not debating only for the sake of debating but rather for the sake of Allah, the exalted and glorified.

All Praise is due to Him, the Lord of the Worlds and may His choicest blessings be upon the Seal of His Messengers, Mohammed, and his purified progeny.

[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

As salaatu was salaamu 'alayk Ya Sayyidina Ya Rasulullah,

Hayder please, don't insult us. Stick to answering my question and don't try to start something new inshaaAllah. InshaaAllah i will wait for your answer about Imaamah if you can find one. You are clearly misinterpreting things and don't even provide proper references for what you say but inshaaAllah we can deal with that and the rest of what you said later after we've finished talking about The Verse dealing with Sayyidina Ibraheem a.s., because otherwise there's too much going on at once and it isn't practical my friend.

However i will point out one thing. The hadith you gave about the Imaam being among us when Sayyidina 'Isa a.s. arrives, then yes Imaam Mahdi a.s. will be amongst us at that time. We believe that Imaam Mahdi a.s. will be with us before Sayyidina 'Isa a.s. so what's your point?

And yes i just want to use Al Quraan for the moment because ahadith we can argue over all day and get nowhere, whereas Al Quraan is very clear. Yet you still feel the need to post ahadith, whereas i refuted you without using any. Why is that? It is because you need to misguide Sunni's with your interpretations of ahadith which aren't so clear in meaning and which people don't know what classification they are in or if there is a difference of opinion over them. Please stick to Al Quraan if you are truthful.

Oh i have a very open mind and of course am debating to show you Al Haqq to put it straight inshaaAllah ta'ala. Therefore, please don't make assumptions.

Walhamdulillahi Rabbil 'alameen.

[Tahir-Riaz]

Dear brother Hayder , what a beautiful name you have. Harzrat Ali (ra) replied to Marhab:

InnAllahdhi Sammatni Ummi Hedara
On birth my Mother named me Heayder

Dear brother, I think you are missing the logical rationality of the Quoted Hadith. I don't know if you have any formal training in semantics, but let me tell you why I disagree with your understanding of the Haidth.

Originally posted by: Hayder Ali
The Prophet (s) said: "What would be your situation if the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is among you?"

1) If Is refers to the present time then this was applicable also during the life time of the Holy Prophet . I'm not going to even comment this idea.

2) The words "What would be" signifies that the rest of the sentence is a hypothetical or a prophesy.

Your understanding is therefor an imposiblity.

W.Salam

Tahir Riaz

[Mystic]

The Prophet (s) said: "What would be your situation if the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is among you?"

This is exactly what the Shia believe - Imam Mahdi (as) is among us. [/quote]

This does not prove the existance of the 12th imam. The hadith tells us the Imam Mahdi (as) will be present before Prophet Isa (as) arrives.
[quote]

"The Holy Prophet [s] has told the signs about his Ahlulbayt in these meanings, because just like Holy Prophet [s], they are amnesty for the inhabitants of earth as well. There are several hadiths on this topic, from amongst them we would like to cite a few.
...Ahmed in another hadith from Holy Prophet [s] recorded: "If the stars go away (i.e., become non-existent), the inhabitants of the heavens will be destroyed, and if my Ahlul-Bayt goes away (i.e., all die), the inhabitants of the earth will be destroyed".
In another tradition which Hakim has termed Sahih on the conditions of Shaykhain says: 'the stars help prevent the inhabitants of the earth from being drowned, and my Ahlul-Bayt is the protector of my community against disputes. Therefore, whichever groups among the Arabs opposes my Ahlul-Bayt, shall be split up by dissensions and will become (a party of) Satan.'"
THere is nothing above that tells us that their are only 12 imams that we should follow.


I'm sure you are aware of the concept of abdaal in the sunni school of thought- this is very similar to the concept of Hujjatullah in the Shia school of thought. Allama Suyuti and others have provided many hadeeth with regards to this and if you are in need of further sources then inshallah i will find them. But one question for you is this: According to your belief, where is the present day Abdaal for the sake of whom we are surviving?
Are you sure you understood the concept of abdaal ? Abdaal are more than one at a time. They are at least 40 abdaal present in the world.


There is also the famous hadeeths in both schools of thought:

"He who dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of Jahiliyah"

Who is the imam of your time?

"O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims. (3:102)


I have presented narration from the 12rs main books alkafi and showed that the imam of the time can be scholar. Yet you ignored this. SO what is the point of repeating the same information over and over again?

[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

Still no answer from hayder.

[fayaz-halai]

Originally posted by:Hayder Ali
1) Let me start with the shorter reply to Fayaz who asked if they were accepted as Caliphs. Im sure you know that they are not accepted as Caliphs because the Quran and the Sunnah doesn't appoint them and anything contradictory to the Quran and Sunnah is against the Shia school of thought.

Please dont mix your rotten imaan with my imaan.With no doubts these three are the rightous caliphas.

Please show the names of twelve caliphas which u believe in the Quraan??

Why do Hazrat Ali took bait in the hands of Harat Abu Bakr,Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Uthman??please dont make your own stories and say that Hazrat Ali observed sukoot and all that false stories.Hazrat Ali can never go against the QUraan and Sayings of Prophet Muhammad and take bait if they were wrong Caliphas.This is our Ahle sunnah Imaan.

Originally posted by:Hayder Ali
...Ahmed in another hadith from Holy Prophet [s] recorded: "If the stars go away (i.e., become non-existent), the inhabitants of the heavens will be destroyed, and if my Ahlul-Bayt goes away (i.e., all die), the inhabitants of the earth will be destroyed".
This is why the demise of the twelfth Imam will bring the end of the world, and this is one of the reasons that he should be alive.

I agree with the above hadith but u seem to be a good muhaddith  man.what conclusion u derive .great.

Dear there are many Ahle bait alive on this earth not only one and will remain till qiyamah.According to you it seems that only Imam Mahdi is from Ahle bayt.What about the other Ahle Bayt??

[fayaz-halai]

Originally posted by: Mansur Alam

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,Still no answer from hayder.

Brother i think he is lost somewhere.lol

I dont think he will answer back,but hope he accepts the truth.

[Madad-Ya-Rasulullah-saw]

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

As salaatu was salaamu 'alayk Ya Sayyidina Ya Habeebullah,

InshaaAllah ta'ala he will accept Al Haqq. I even posted this on a shia forum along with a few other questions and still haven't got any proper answers except jibberish with the shia even differing within themselves over what the answers should be lol.

Walhamdulillahi Rabbil 'alameen.