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Shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Jilani Media — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:33:08 GMT

An amazing speech by Hazrat Mufakkir-e-Islam, Pir Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani (may Allah preserve him). There are some magnificent points discussed in this lecture. A must see for all YaNabi.com users as the Shaykh specfically addresses recent comments made that "the afdaliyya of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (radiAllahu anhu) is absolutely definite and there is ijma' on him being the greatest without any difference of opinion."

This event was held on Thursday, 25th June 2009 in Luton. Shaykh Sayyid Muhammad bin Yahya an-Ninowy (may Allah preserve him) was also present and his lecture will be uploaded very soon.

Many thanks to brother Qadri Jilani for providing the DVD.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Qanbar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:33:08 GMT

Ego blindfolds commonsense

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

objective enquirer — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 08:00:57 GMT

[quote][b]Sabri Bros. (03.07.2009)[/b][hr]I've watched the video QJ provided the link to.

It's quite clear what Allama Saheb says he is saying any quotes for the afzaliyat of Hazrat Ali RA are infiradi similar to ones that display the afzaliyat of Hazrat Salman farsi RA and Hazrat Abu Hurairah RA. He goes onto say this is tafzeeli and a tact of Shias.

He finally summarises it is Ijmaa of the Ahle Sunnat to beleive Hazrat Abu Bakr is afzal after prophet AS.

Simple task count how many times he says 'Ijma' then count how many times he says 'Jamhoor'.[/quote]

OK, lets suppose you are right. what about when he says such a person is not out of ahl al-sunna.

would you agree?

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Qadri Jilani — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:50:08 GMT

Well Sabri bros, that is your Allama Sahib contradicting himself then, i don't want to tally how many times he used opposing terms and then like a football match see which side has more goals. To be fair I don't think he knows the terms well and that is your fault for dragging ulama into this debate who have not yet been able to research the matter. Instead of inviting people to look into the issue, to listen to lectures of Hazrat Mufakkir-e-Islam (if they cannot visit themselves), you have forced them to rush into giving fatwas. Repeatedly phoning and asking Ulama to give on the spot phone verdicts will not resolve the issue for you, what matters is substance and that is what convinces a person.

What you guys should be doing is invite Ulama to study the topic and see the evidences of both sides. The methods you are using are not based on any sincerity and simply causes fasaad. I know some real sincere Ulama of great calibre too who have said that they wish to actually visit Hazrat Mufakkir-e-Islam and gain an understanding of the matter, as they know that whatever he said will be backed by authentic sources and solidly grounded in the Islamic tradition to say the least. These are people who you would call neutral ulama but they have a genuine and sincere interest to Hazrat's position and what the Salaf have said on this matter.

When a person does not even know the dala'il what chances do they have of refuting.

Whatever the Allama Sahib is saying in your video, one thing he does say is that they are not outside of the Ahl-e-Sunnat and that is what Hazrat Sahib said.

All I can advise to you brother is that you rid yourself of the company of dodgy mullahs and sit with true sincere Ulama.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Sabri Bros. — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:04:37 GMT

I've watched the video QJ provided the link to.

He finally summarises it is Ijmaa of the Ahle Sunnat to beleive Hazrat Abu Bakr is afzal after prophet AS.

Simple task count how many times he says 'Ijma' then count how many times he says 'Jamhoor'.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Qadri Jilani — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:15:17 GMT

Sabri Brothers, in the series of clips you uplaoded you missed off the fourth one. sunnitehreeq, the guy uploading these has been pursuing ulama to record phone messages on this masa'ala. Most people recognise that he is not a person who wishes to seek the truth or resolve the ikhtilaaf between the ulama but to further create disunity and carry out propoganda against other Ulama. These types of tricks make me sick, they have never even smelt what ikhlaas (sincerity) is; they come out of their cracks where there is ikhtilaf in order to fuel a controversy, that is what they find delight in.

Anyhow, here is the fourth conversation uploaded by sunnitehreeq that was adequately missed by Sabri Bros. Allama Muhammad Saeed (not heard of him before) states there is Jamhoor and the one who differs is Sunni

"ham usei ahl-e-sunnat sei kharij to nahin kehtei" listen carefully to the first 30 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lTomyPTBdY

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

undercoversufi — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:41:26 GMT

can some please provide the books names and page number which Hazoor Muffakir Islam quoted please as my Urdu is not very strong.

jazakallah

for example,

tafseer dar ul mansoor page 21 e.t.c

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Zarb e Haidari — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:32:29 GMT

Bismillairahmaniraaheem

It seems too obvious that the opposition to Muffakir e Islam Pir Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani has no proof. However the supporters of Muffakir e Islam have tons of proof in Audio Video form. Also if anyone has any doubt they can directly ask Muffakir e Islam.

A person who is willing to make a Wahabi/Deo/Salfi/Shia as his Imam the only criteria being that they should love the Holy Prophet (sawaw) Its like saying that I am willing to pray behind a Christian as long as he loves our Holy Prophet (sawaw) now he won't be a Christian will he if he loved our Blessed Holy Prophet (sawaw) !

In real terms he is authenticating that there are true lovers of our Holy Prophet (sawaw) among the deviant sects such as Wahabi/Deo/Salfi/Shia.

This statement of his is such a supprise that you cannot imagine even the Christians or the Jews saying it about their sects !. Statements of such nature can only be made by people who are ignorant. For example a few years back some Muslims in India said that all religions are right as long as they worship the same God ! Those Muslims were handed out fatwas of Kufr !.

We should have a governing body to keep all Ulmas Sheikhs Pirs inline with the requirments and teachings of the Ahle Sunnah. If they step out of line, then they should be brought to account.

We should all support the TRUTH and despise falsehood. A sign of a Munafiq is that he would dislike Ali Moula (as) and he would pretend and go to such lengths to be seen as a good person in doing so he would make such statements for self promotion even if it means creating disunity among the Muslims and damaging the Ahle Sunnah !

Jazak Allah - Wasalaam

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

qadrimuslim — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:51:36 GMT

it looks as though there is still some confusion among some of our brothers..

Mufakkir e Islam has demonstrated that there has always existed a difference of opinion re: afzalliyat and no Ijma was established

.. if anyone has any proofs for the contrary then lets see it. Show us how there is Ijma on the afzalliyat issue. Lets keep it that simple.

On a sidenote: Everyone should understand the position that Mufakkir e Islam holds in this matter is a widely accepted position, mainly among the more educated Ulama. There are those who have spoke against this position and gave the simple answer 'there is Ijma on the issue because so and so said so'. That will not work! Put up or shut up!

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Zarb e Haidari — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:12:38 GMT

[quote][b]Sabri Bros. (01.07.2009)[/b][hr][size=3]Let's put it into context.

Ala Hazrat Aeezeem-ul-Barkat Mujaddid-e-Deen-o-Millat Imam-o-Ishq-o-Muhabbat Rehbar-e-Shariat Pehchan-e-Ahle Sunnat Jo Likgaye Kanzul Iman Hamara Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Rehmatullah Alaih has an opposite view to Pir Syed Abdul Qadir Shah Saheb. In Fatawa-e-Rizvia it is stated that to hold anyone other than Hazrat Siddiqu-e-Akbar as being afzal after the Prophets is in the very least misguided.[/size] [/quote]

Sabri Bros what you are saying is a completely incorrect regarding Muffakir e Islam. Show me evidence that Muffakir e Islam has ever said that Moula Ali (as) were highest after the Prophets !. Please read my earlier post which should clear your misunderstanding.

Thank you

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

shaheensa — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:47:14 GMT

Brother Sabri:

When Mufakire Islam has provided irrefutable evidence against igma sahaba on the tafzil issue from classical sources including Sahaba, tabeen, and scholars from previous generations, then mere sayings and opinions of present day scholars (e.g. speeches you posted) or ruling from last century scholars do not carry much weight, no matter how many title we include with their names and how much respect we may have for them. Do you have the authority to call all those who differed from the Afzaliat of Siddiq Akbar ( may Allah be pleased with him) including the beloved wife of the prophet (peace be upon him), Aisha Siddiqa (may Allah be pleased with her), sahaba, Imams from Ahlebait, tabien, and others predecessors as kafir, bidati, gumrah, or non sunni?

Those ulma who want to shoot their fatwas on this issue and their followers, should either refute the evidence provided by Mufakir-e-Islam and establish the proof for ijma on this issue, or remain silent, otherwise should they be considered misinformed or misguided?

Shahid A. Shaheen

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Sabri Bros. — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:28:30 GMT

I'm sorry if I come across as being one-sided and apologise for the direct talking but having held discussions with some people it is sad the aloofness and arrogance that they display.

To everyone out there as QJ rightly highlighted this is a scholarly matter and there are differences of opinion it's a case of who's opinion do you adopt. This difference isn't a minor difference though it is a difference of aqeedah and whether beleif in something takes you of the fold of Islam which is very important.

There were differences about issues between great scholars of the Ahle Sunnah but aqeedah was rarely the issue at the heart of the differences.

I've been guilty of getting into the politics and I apologise but I pray that the scholarly ikhtilaf concludes in the acceptance of opinions or even better consensus and resolution to the ikhtilaf in commendable fashion.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Qadri Jilani — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:18:41 GMT

Yes, we are aware of the ikhtilaaf in this matter as expressed by some of our ulama (when being constantly pressed by some people) and it is a scholarly (ilmi) ikhtilaaf and the topic is being dealt with in a scholalry manner. Due to this fact, one has to weigh the evidence and discover which opinion is most sound. What do Islamic sources say regarding this matter? What were the opinions of the Sahaba and those that followed them?

I have heard the various talks on this matter inlcuding the ones you have posted but after hearing the speech of Sayyidi Mufakkir-e-Islam, the matter is as clear as water that there is no ijma and the matter is not yaqeeni and qati'. I do not want to start debating the topic again but one thing that remains to be answered is what people have to say regarding all those highly ranked Sahaba who held Sayyiduna Ali as afdal or Sayyiduna Jafar (or someone else).

I advise Sabro Bros to address the topic with a little more sincerity and neutrality, listen to the talk then give some feedback on it, your one sided approach does not say much.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Sabri Bros. — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:01:10 GMT

[size=3]Let's put it into context.

Ala Hazrat Aeezeem-ul-Barkat Mujaddid-e-Deen-o-Millat Imam-o-Ishq-o-Muhabbat Rehbar-e-Shariat Pehchan-e-Ahle Sunnat Jo Likgaye Kanzul Iman Hamara Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Rehmatullah Alaih has an opposite view to Pir Syed Abdul Qadir Shah Saheb. In Fatawa-e-Rizvia it is stated that to hold anyone other than Hazrat Siddiqu-e-Akbar as being afzal after the Prophets is in the very least misguided.[/size]

Hazrat Mufti Akhtar Raza Kahn (Grandson of Ala Hazrat and one of the most prominnet Muftis of India:

[b]
Hazrat Syed Muzaffar Hussain Shah Saheb:[/b]

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

iaa — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:59:54 GMT

One party is saying that there is IJMA' that sayyidna Abu Bakr (ra) is afdal, and any other belief is kufr

I don't think anyone is saying that it is kufr but bidat.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

qadrimuslim — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:50:24 GMT

[quote][b]seeker (01.07.2009)[/b][hr]So lemme get this straight.

One party is saying that there is IJMA' that sayyidna Abu Bakr (ra) is afdal, and any other belief is kufr.

Shaykh Mufakkir e Islam says that he believes sayyidna Abu Bakr (ra) is afdal, but to believe sayyidna Ali (ra) is afdal is also acceptable.

THAT'S IT? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?[/quote]

In a nutshell, yes brother. We have too many opportunists these days who in their envy and dislike of more learned Ulama, try to find small avenues to force a storm. Insha Allah, they have failed in trying to make accusations against Huzoor Mufakkir e Islam. Thus, the accusers have lost their honour, something which is proven by their inability to speak on the matter.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

qalam — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:18:10 GMT

salam

interesting post zarehaidri,

you have elucidated the complete lecture into a small koozaa.

I agree with your points although i must disagree with the softly soflt aproach.

Yes very good

dr aq

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Zarb e Haidari — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:44:42 GMT

Bismillahirahmaaniraheem

It is evident from speeches made by Muffakir e Islam that Hz Abu Bakr Sadiq (ra) are the highest after the Prophets according to Jamhoor e Ahle Sunnah.

Those who hold the view that Moula Ali (as) are the highest after the Prophets do not share THIS view with that of Muffakir e Islam. In fact Muffakir e Islam has shown the world how to love the blessed SAHABA of the Most blessed Prophet ever created.

It was because of this great love of the Sahaba Iqraam that Muffakir e Islam thought of it HIS right to defend those Sahabas from being labled as Deviant and Kaffir/Munafiqs by those who so blindly follow fanatical interpretation of loving Hz Abu Bakr (ra) that they call all those who do not accept him as the highest after the Prophets as being Deviant/Kaffir/Munafiq !.

Muffakir e Islam pointed out that it was NOT correct to lable those who held the view as that Hz Moula Ali (as) were the highest to be called Deviants or even Kaffirs as many Sahabas held that view.

The Sahabas who held the view that Moula Ali (as) were highest after the Prophets cannot be called any of such bad attributes, as it would be Haraam to call them Deviant or Kaffir. Maazallah Astagfirullah.

Those among the Ummah who decide to follow those Sahabas who held the view that Moula Ali (as) were the highest cannot be called deviant or Kaffir. For the simple reason they too are following the example of the Sahaba e Iqraam like Hz Bilaal Miqdaad Salman Farsi Abu Dharr Ammar Yassir may Allah (swt) send his blessing upon them and be pleased with them.

All Muffakir e Islam did was to make it clear that it was wrong to call anyone as a Kaffir or Deviant as it would amount to calling the blessed Sahaba as such. In defence of the Sahaba some people branded Muffakir e Islam as being Tafzeeli !.

Yet no one to this day has brought a atoms weight of evidence to prove that Pir Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani ever have said that Hz Ali (as) were the highest after the Prophets all they did was to defend the Sahabas who held this view. The reason being that no donkey seller has any right to defame a single Sahabi let alone speak bad about a large group of Sahabas who spoke highly of Imam Ali (as).

Does anyone know the view of the Ajwaaj e Mutahiraat and Bibi Pak Khatoon e Jannat alaisalaam? It would be interesting to know that its all down to personal choice of the Sahaba e Iqram (ra). For us its better to follow Muffakir e Islam who holds the view of the Jamhoor and are not ashamed of defending those beloved companions and blessed wives of our Holy Prophet (sawaw) who did not agree with the Jamhoor.

We hold the view that those Sahabas who held the view that Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) were the highest were correct and those who held others as highest were also so correct !. Why ? because they knew them better than us.

I would like for everyone to be honest and think which is best to defend some Sahabas or to defend all of them ? Haq Chaar Yaar or Haq Sab Yaar ? Now we know those who think that some Sahabas were deviant and even kaffir for accepting Moula Ali (as) as the highest that for them Haq Chaar Yaar is MOST suitable and sustainable by their lies. :w00t:

Jazak umullahkhair

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

objective enquirer — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:04:59 GMT

subhanAllah, i love the two great syeds. May Allah give them long life with health so the muslims of the world keep benefitting from their guidance. ameen. i have never met hazrat syed yahya ninowy sahib but it feels to me that i have known him all my life.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

hanafi_student — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 05:41:44 GMT

Yes, it seems like Shah Sahib asked Shaykh Ninowy to verify to the public that what he's reading from the book is accurate. Masha'Allah, the Shaykh confirmed everything Shah Sahib was reading as accurate qoutation.

Anyone has Shaykh Ninowy's speech before Hazrat Shah Sahib? could you upload it here?

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

seeker — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 04:16:10 GMT

So lemme get this straight.

One party is saying that there is IJMA' that sayyidna Abu Bakr (ra) is afdal, and any other belief is kufr.

Shaykh Mufakkir e Islam says that he believes sayyidna Abu Bakr (ra) is afdal, but to believe sayyidna Ali (ra) is afdal is also acceptable.

THAT'S IT? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

on a side note I was slightly bemused just before 26:00 :hehe:, you will never find an urdu speaker... Anyway, masha Allah my urdu isn't 100% but I enjoyed shaykh's talk, I like his style. :cool: Shaykh Ninowy is also awesome. What a guy. Awesome! Saheeh! I found it quite sweet of shaykh Ninowy to just stand there at the request of Mufakkir e Islam nodding :) May Allah give them both a long life and benefit us!

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Qadri Jilani — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:49:34 GMT

Oh yes SubhanAllah, it was a brilliant atmosphere.

In the beginning Hazrat Sahib says that he has a lot of points to go through but the time is short. Shaykh Ninowy responds saying "with the madad of Moula Ali, everything will be fine!" (you can hear it in the start).

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

Desert Sheikh — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:37:53 GMT

[quote][b]Nabeel Qadiri Jilani (29.06.2009)[/b][hr]

[/quote]

Ye Jalwah-e-Jannah Hey Tamasha Nahien Koi

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

asif786 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:02:55 GMT

The truth is no one has the bottle to challenge Hazarat Saab. It's easy to say things when someone is not there. But when Mufakire Islam is at present no one has the guts. The truth is friends and Enemies believe that Hazarat saab is on Haq and if you ever come across him the other person will be defeated...................

The speech is amazing and factual. Lets see if anyone can prove Mufakire Islam wrong.

Re: shaan-e-abu bakr as-siddiq & issue of ijma or jamhoor: hazrat mufakkir-e-islam (includes shaykh ninowy)

hafiz qadri — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:06:38 GMT

Aslaamualikum

This is an awesome response to the khawaarjis,come out and challenge it.