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By LuqmanNaq - 04.10.2008 17:01:39
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Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim
Assalaamu Alaikum,
I'm a revert. I've been a revert for Alhamdulillah 2 years, and I am Sunni. Please forgive me for possibly a seemingly negative post from the outset, I have however been a lurker on the forum for a bit...
I would like to address an issue I haven't really seen raised here, and seeing as it's one of the largest Sunni Forums on the Web I would like to post it here (I may possibly post it elsewhere too).
The following isn't a specific attack on the Asian Muslim culture, from what I've heard from a white Imam it can apply to the Somalian, and Arab communities in Britian. However myself and the reverts that I have known and spoken to have only been practicing mainly within Asian Muslim communities. I know that the problem isn't exclusive to my own city, in fact I think the problem is all over the world where Islam was brought to the locality by a particular race/nationality.
The problem I'm talking about is tribalism within the Ummah. When I first came became a Muslim the first year I was immune to noticing these things particularly because I visited London and the surrounding areas often to see a small group of Brothers who gave me Dawah. I isolated myself from my local Muslim community (for reasons too complex to go into now... let's just say there are such things as martial art cults) and survived the human innate need for companionship by regular visits to my brothers in London and visits to the mosque where I took my Sahadah to do Dhikr.
After that initial phase of becoming a Muslim and being a Muslim, and leaving that 'group' I began to engage and practice within my local community. One of the first things I did was look for a wife (I'm happily married now, Alhamdulillah). The local efforts by some sisters to find me a wife received no interested parties. My first personal encounter was with a half Spanish- half Asian lady who was extremely racist towards white people - I brushed that aside to misfortune and continued looking. I (stupidly with reflection) joined an online Islamic marriage site, on viewing the site I was shocked to see the blatant Racism from many sisters seeing signs such as Asian only, Bengali only, Pakistani only, and Guajarati only their profiles. One Asian Pakistani sister I contacted was eager to get married to me however eventually she confessed that her mother and father would not approve and there would be extreme consequences if she married me because I was black. After consulting a spiritual mentor I broke it off.
Simultaneously via weekly classes held for reverts, and a Dawah Table that a (white) Imam, myself and another brother, had set up in our town centre we were hearing - and sharing - stories from reverts of the tribal mentality within the Asian Muslim community. We heard stories of Asians refusing to marry and refusing their siblings to marry people outside of their ancestors nationality/race, people not having Salaams returned frequently, announcements and talks in Urdu, the prevalence of Born Muslims in mosque showing that little to no Dawah has been done in the last 40 years, lack of Dawah from born muslims in general most of us received Dawah from reverts or non Asians (normally reverts and Salafis who do Dawah), and last but not least a deep feeling of social isolation and non-acceptance from born Muslims.
I also know from a sister who attended the local Islamic Girls school that Racism is rampant amongst the youth, and that she (being half black) had to learn to 'fight back' throughout school life, and the same alienation resulting from people talking languages she didn't understand.
I would like to think the above is rare, but it seems to be something I frequently hear from the reverts I meet. One brother that stands out was a white American revert who was told that 'there are no white muslims in America', he was visibly deeply upset by the way the Asian Muslim community had treated him and told us that because his wife was Somalian the Asians began to show their disagreement towards marrying a Somalian, his adopted son was also badly treated in the local Madrassa. He no longer mixes with the mainstream muslim community here, and instead has gone to the non-racist Salafi Muslims here.
This is a side note I would like to add many Sunnis are sometimes shocked by the adherence of many people to Salafism, I'm not and I can see part of the attraction, the general non-racist attitude ie. Many well respected Salafi Ulema are from various races. I'm not a Salafi, but one thing they have is openness and dialogue about Islam to non-Muslims in a time when dangerous, and incredible, ignorance is rampant, and also (the non-Arab) Salafis don't seem to have a problem with Racism. From what I hear from Salafi local Muslims is a mixture of races and cultures in the mosque, which to be honest is extremely rare and something I've only experienced in one Sunni mosque in London.
I have been to Dhikr and talks in Birmingham of the noble Shaykh Habib Ali Jafri, and Shaykh Yaqoubi, the attendance was 95% Asian, Salaams was again almost non-existent with me initiating most of the time.
I sometimes ponder what would be the plight of my Black grandparents who are above 60, in all like hood they would lose the deep community feel of their local Church. It saddens and - in all honesty -angers me that the Ummah seems to be displaying such tribal behaviour.
My question is most Sunnis like yourselves talk about being lovers and upholders of the Sunnah, Lovers of the Prophet (SAW) , upholders and practitioners of true Islam, etc. I would like to ask why is internal Racism between Asians and Racism towards non Asians Rampant?
Why has the Asian Muslim community been largely isolationist?
Why is the use of Urdu so prevalent in the Mosques when it alienates reverts, and non-Urdu speaking Muslims?
The ***** Sunni vs. ***** and Wahhabis/Salafis may be important to you however what about important issues like breaking down the barriers that have lead to the cultural/racial isolation and alienation that is obviously in the Sunni community in England?
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By Star786/92 - 16.10.2008 23:24:50
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As Salaam Wa Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barkatahu,
Dear Brother,
Thanks for your concerns. I think it is not what Salafi or Sunnis have in mind but it is rather mindset of people. What we put into our mind is what we believe. I hope this generation will be quite free from all this and we have to work on it and free their minds from it.
We usually respond to what we get in return from others. Action causes reaction. But the teaching of our beloved Rasool Allah Muhammad (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) there is no racism in Islam. We are all equal and our status according to ALlah Az'zawajal is what actions we do - not color or race.
Hope we are able to educate in all phases ... race, religion and creed.
Jazak ALlahu khayran.
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By warea - 17.10.2008 13:30:47
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Originally posted by: Luqman Watts
Why is the use of Urdu so prevalent in the Mosques when it alienates reverts, and non-Urdu speaking Muslims
only if they knew how to talk english would they like using it.
during the old times it was disliked to learn and use english as it belonged to the occupying force.
but unfortunately it became a bit too late to recognise the importance english language has in todays world.
i didnt know that tribalism was so deep as you mentioned.
or maybe the problems you have mentioned might be more on other factors than actually being rascist.
anyway we have to recognise that islam is now at its lowest point.
and the scholars are trying their best to pic it up.
An important problem that the scholars have to tackle is the practice of caste system by some muslim communities in india.
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By SufiSaf - 17.10.2008 14:10:49
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Brother Luqman
Check my post - I hear you brother! This is a problem that needs to be tackled...
Wsalam
Safiyyah
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By Know the Ledge - 17.10.2008 15:19:13
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This type of ignorance and mentality permeated into all avenues and facets of life, including racism and isolationsim.
It's not limited to predjudice against you and other non-asian muslims.
Also, there's been alot of jokers recently in our area who convert to islam and then expect somebody to give their daughter to them in marriage. People are wary of this and are naturally apprehensive of this type of seedy practise. They're the sort of people who have failed at everything else and see islam as a route out of their loneliness.
Why is it that these reverts are always on the dole or working as street cleaners or other sundry jobs for cash in hand that want these beautiful noble girls in marriage? I await the day a revert who is a company boss, doctor or other well to do educated person comes knocking on the doors of Asian people for marriage to their daughers.
You can talk about unity, but cultural differences will always remain and have always been.
I can speak and understand urdu fairly well, yet I have issue with why they use this language in the mosques, so it's not limited to being a conspiracy against you, but we who speak the language take issue with it. You're blowing that aspect up and make out as if it is isolating only the non-asian muslims who go there!
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By Know the Ledge - 17.10.2008 16:00:31
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Originally posted by: CHISHTI MALANG
Brother KNL if you're not a revert then you really can't appreciate what the brother is saying. Imagine converting to Islam and then wherever and whenever you go to mosque to learn the Deen it is always transmitted in another language. In the last 12 years of me being a Muslim i've understood about 2-3 jumahs...can you imagine that?...whenever there is a dars i Qur'aan, mehfil i Milaad, conference you name it it's all in urdu...can't you imagine how isolated you would feel?? Then if you go to deo/wahhabi mosques you're told not to go there because the are wrong yet when you attend the Sunni masaajid you can't understand anything!! I even had to ask different people when Eid jammat was because the announcement was in urdu and so was the poster!!
I understand totally, me and many of my friends and peers feel exactly the same. I have been berated on these very forums numerous times for saying that we need to kick these urdu singing imams out of our mosques or force them to learn English. So this is not limited to reverts but all youngsters.
Originally posted by: CHISHTI MALANG
When it comes to marriage then Allaah a'ala will help and i don't blame people for marrying within their own culture as compatability is a big issue in marriage but we shouldn't solely marry from within our own racial sphere. ......" Why is it that these reverts are always on the dole or working as street cleaners or other sundry jobs for cash in hand that want these beautiful noble girls in marriage? I await the day a revert who is a company boss, doctor or other well to do educated person comes knocking on the doors of Asian people for marriage to their daughers."....yeah cos all asian Muslims are scientists, doctors and astronauts...i mean it's not as if there are any grocery shop cash in hand muslims or muslims working and signing on is it??....is this what you think of reverts...i think you've proved brother luqmans point quite accurately!!I
No, not all asian muslims are, but i'm sure if an asian muslim wanted to marry a noble white secularist girl of good repute and familial background (hypothetically speaking), then surely you can't expect to walk into their house parking your taxi outside 'innit' and expect, nay demand to be accepted just like that.
When you move out of your cultural comaptible circles, then people have higher expectations from you, as you don't bring a cultural background, so what do you have to offer? Street cleaning? illiteracy? cabbing? Well, Amjed puttar has all those credentials as well,, as well as being the son of a very good friend and marriage to him will stregnthen family bonds.
The one thing asian muslims have, is strong family bonds, don't try to coax that away from us and make us feel ashamed of it, using these psedudo islamic arguments.
Originally posted by: CHISHTI MALANG
f people are converting to marry girls then that is wrong...what about pakistani taxi drivers chatting up any woman who sits in the cab, also Muslim boys dating non Muslim girls, getting them pregnant and doing a runner is also highly prevalent...and let's not forget the classic...."we've been "going out" for 3 years now tracey but if you want to marry me you have to become Muslim as my Islam comes first (which if it did he wouldn't have been dating her in the first place!!) so there are nasty parts to both issues.
What the hell's this got to do with anything? This is haraam and sin, what's this got to do with it? It needs to be condemned.
Originally posted by: CHISHTI MALANG
The deos/wahhabs are far ahead of us in dawah and understanding the issue of race from an Islamic perspective. At the ahle hadeeth masjid here in birmingham you see that the majority of the Muslims there are reverts..black..white..you name it and there is an air of racial cohesion and not isolation and this is due to the fact that their imams preach in english and their publications are also in english....i personally can't stand the salafi beliefs but i must admit i feel jealous of their organisational ability, racial harmony and their overall focus on dawah, reverts and the youth.
My deo/ wahabi friends say the same about us!
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By hamzah - 19.10.2008 13:21:21
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Waalaykum Salaam Warahmatullah
Brother Luqman, i think a lot of people (Asian and non Asian) can relate to the problems you have pointed out.
The Asian Muslim community definitely needs to modernise its operations in line with the ever changing society we live in today. However, i think that over the last few years thinks have definitely started getting better.
The issue of Urdu only speaking imams was one of the biggest complaints of Asian youngsters who complained that they can't understand what the imam is saying! So this is not an Asian/non Asian issue. As a result many Masjid's have tried to introduce English speaking imams and teachers.
Of course, the extent to which things are improving varies from city to city and from Masjid to Masjid. There is especially good progress being made in Masjid's and organisations with a lot of youngsters who are heavily involved in day to day operations.
The problem is not only when Urdu speaking imams speak at Jummah, but an even bigger problem is when the children go to Maddrasa and can not communicate with their teacher! They can not build a relationship with their teacher, which is what leads to bad behaviour and teachers sending most of the class time disciplining them rather than teaching! This leaves the kids detached from Maddrasa and the deen altogether. But like i said, things are changing slowly but surely. For example, our Maddrasa has a policy when recruiting new staff that they must be able to speak English. But it doesn't stop there, one of the principle aims of the Maddrasa should be to make the Maddrasa the most exciting part of the Childs day! So that they cherish their time their when they are older, and remain attached to the deen throughout their lives.
There is a huge amount of work to be done, but it is up to those who feel strongly about the issue, and who want to see change to do something about it. Put pressure on your local Masjid's and imams try to get more involved in helping the masjid in its activities.
InshaAllah things will continue to improve. Even if one masjid makes bold changes other Masjid's will eventually follow their lead.
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By LuqmanNaq - 19.10.2008 17:05:27
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Assalaamu alaikum,
Know the ledge... JazakAllah sincerely for your reply and for the opportunity to discuss the issue.
No, not all asian muslims are, but i'm sure if an asian muslim wanted to marry a noble white secularist girl of good repute and familial background (hypothetically speaking), then surely you can't expect to walk into their house parking your taxi outside 'innit' and expect, nay demand to be accepted just like that.
When you move out of your cultural comaptible circles, then people have higher expectations from you, as you don't bring a cultural background, so what do you have to offer? Street cleaning? illiteracy? cabbing? Well, Amjed puttar has all those credentials as well,, as well as being the son of a very good friend and marriage to him will stregnthen family bonds.
The one thing asian muslims have, is strong family bonds, don't try to coax that away from us and make us feel ashamed of it, using these psedudo islamic arguments.
Also please may I ask what is your perception of reverts and non-muslims in general?
Islamically a person's Job - even a street cleaner - shouldn't really be of concern (provided the women proposed to is satisfied) what should be of concern is the Muslims degree of Taqwa. Being a doctor and a Munafiq is worse here and hereafter, than if you're a street cleaner and if your not a practicing Muslim.
A street cleaner who follows the Sunnah, and has deep Tawqa would be my choice for my (inshaAllah) daughter, over a doctor who is a Munafiq. It seems 'perception' and 'honour' in the community is given precedence over finding your siblings a partner with Ihsan.
Why is it that these reverts are always on the dole or working as street cleaners or other sundry jobs for cash in hand that want these beautiful noble girls in marriage?
I personally know a white man, who is now an Imam, who was a marine biologist and was personally told by the Asian mufti of the area that it was a waste of time looking for marriage to an Asian, as the community would accept him.
Akhlaq, and Taqwa should be our guidance as a community with regards to accepting or rejecting proposals to our siblings.
Many non-muslims who are looked down upon by Asian muslims for their lifestyle simply need to be given Dawah... (Like the revert brother I spoke to told me he'd rather be shot than go back to his atheist life - I agree ,I would rather be killed than be a non-muslim. Also to be honest a lot of non-muslim on a community scale have qualities that are commendable ie. This country's openess to foreign people. their attempts at cultural/racial integration (no-one can deny that this is a multi-racial/cultural land), their relative quick (somewhat) acceptance of people not of their race ie. Mixed relationships, and children, and this has happened in the past 40-50 years. The asian Muslim community has been here for about 40 yrs to my knowledge and they have this tribal isolationalism deep in their psyche.
Also as a Muslim who speaks to, and is friendly with, people of piety, and people of 'liberalism' (shall we say) in the Ummah - I know for a fact that the problems within the non-muslim community are rampant in the Asian muslim community - I'm sure I don't have to go into details about that. So it makes no sense to look down upon people who have come from that lifestyle into Islam, and are trying to earn a living in a job society deems 'low grade'. My hats off to their sincerity and humility - I personally know a revert brother who is a street cleaner, always smiling and cheerful to me, Alhamdulillah.
With all due respects Uncle your attitude is precisely what continues this cycle of cultural/racial isolation.
They're the sort of people who have failed at everything else and see islam as a route out of their loneliness.
Why and how a person reverts is grossly misinterpreted by born muslims. Allah (swt) guided them to Islam, you have no right to say such terrible things about their (and my) intention, for becoming a muslim.
Perhaps they thought that the attitude of judging people based on their race, culture, and job - wouldn't be a factor for negative judgement from muslims - seeing as it is explicity expressed as such in the Quran and Sunnah.
You can talk about unity, but cultural differences will always remain and have always been.
Differences don't have to be a source of disunity and a cause for isolation, as shown by the Ummah in regards to the 2 major schools of Aqida, the 4 Madhabs, and the many Tariqats and Shaykhs.
I can speak and understand urdu fairly well, yet I have issue with why they use this language in the mosques, so it's not limited to being a conspiracy against you, but we who speak the language take issue with it. You're blowing that aspect up and make out as if it is isolating only the non-asian muslims who go there!
I didn't say it was a calculated conspiracy, I meant is (and I beleive is easily understandable from what I wrote), as a consequence, it isolates non- asian muslims, who normally don't understand Urdu.
This type of ignorance and mentality permeated into all avenues and facets of life, including racism and isolationsim. It's not limited to predjudice against you and other non-asian muslims.
As a revert and black man, I know that very well. It is rampant however in the Asian muslim community, and I see very few people acknowledging it and even talking about it. That fact that it exists in other avenues doesn't excuse the fact that it exists, and should be ignore and not critisized.
When you move out of your cultural comaptible circles, then people have higher expectations from you, as you don't bring a cultural background, so what do you have to offer? Street cleaning? illiteracy? cabbing? Well, Amjed puttar has all those credentials as well,, as well as being the son of a very good friend and marriage to him will stregnthen family bonds.
Not once have I seen Taqwa in your discussion about marriage and the reasons for rejecting reverts which saddens me honestly. So are you saying that based on 2 muslims with similar 'credentials', the fact that one is Asian gives him greater eligibility for marriage to an Asian women?
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By LuqmanNaq - 19.10.2008 17:41:52
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Brother Hamzah,
JazakAllah for your reply...
I've personally spoken to a local Imam who is a revert and he has listened (I have been with him) to many stories from reverts about the Asian Muslim community. He expressed everything to the Mufti... Silence.
I've personally expressed things to a local Alim who rationalized things, and told me to my face that some of the local Imams are racist themselves.
I know another local Imam who has been trying to change things for years, nothing happened.
Sigh... I shouldn't get frustrated... this has all been predicted by our beloved Prophet (SAW).
The advice given to the local White Imam from a born muslim seems true. He said he's seen reverts come in and try to change things in the community - and get depressed and frustrated because things don't change... his advice was simply to do Dawah, and accept the community will probably stay as it is.
Talking to reverts who have been muslim far longer than I have... it seems true... My nafs have a hard time accepting this I guess.
======
A Muslimah called Kate Zebiri has written a book called; British Muslim Converts: Choosing Alternative Lives - According to the local revert Imam she has collected stories that show the problems are rampant in Britain.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 17:46:59
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Brother Luqman,
I applaud your honest and you bringing up this topic.
I can tell people I've experienced strange things myself...but being from an asian background I probably dont stick out too much like a sore thumb.
I've had people look at me like dirt saying, "you dont speak mirpuri?"
And I'm like, "hello im a revert...having asian skin doesnt mean you can put me in a box!"
And then there are those, "Mummy will never accept you because you are not from my tribe (beradari), tho masha Allah ur a gr8 sister."
I think only reverts can truly understand, how after the initial shahada period...
we are left
isolated, alone, and it seems like no-one cares anymore; and when we look for marriage it seems no one wants to help.
I know a revert sister who just cand find a brother who is willing to marry her because she is half caste!!! And masha Allah she is one pious sister... and I have tried so many brothers to the point she's fed-up.
It's a lonely life being a revert.... my spouse and I are both are reverts (of different colors, nationality, etc)... but alhamdulillah we are blessed with a wonderful community of fellow mureeds who are not at all rascist and have really welcomed us into their worlds.
Unfortunately this situation does occur; and there is a lot of... you cannot marry this color, this language, this tribe people.
I know a sister who was beaten up totally because she was a mirpuri wanting to marry a rai ?!? I also know one of her brothers is on this forum! Whats up with that?
We cant deny it occurs. I just hope that newer generations are more tolerant and realise that deen is the most important thing!
As for saying the reverts are all street cleaners, etc.... have u thought that money is not everything. Wouldnt you rather your daughter was married to a man who treated her well according to the deen, rather than a CEO of a company who may very well be making his 500,000 a year plus his pretty little PA on the side. Of course good muslim reverts expect practising sisters because they have given up so much themselves to become muslim, and this is what islam teaches us...to marry for deen not petro-dollars!
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By salim KHALIL - 19.10.2008 17:52:35
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Akhi there is Rasicm ripe within the Asian community...my cousins children were refused admission in a Madrassa in Blackburn because they are PAKISTANI this happened a few years ago
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By LuqmanNaq - 19.10.2008 18:00:45
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Assalaamu alaikum brother Chishti,
JazakAllah for your reply.
I've only understood 1 Jumah in 2 years I thought that was bad enough... but 12 years mashaAllah... sabr :-)
I agree that the Salafis are ahead of the Sunni community in regards to Dawah, and racial/cultural cohesion. And I also agree that the Asians have done brilliant work building so many mosques in britain. According to the local Imam the first mosque in britain was built by a revert?
What kind of response have you had bringing up these issues within the Muslim community since you've been a revert?
Also how do you make spaces? :-)
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By YaNabi Chemist - 19.10.2008 18:44:52
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Salaam
My family is from a pakistani background, however we are from punjab and not mirpur.
Alhimdillah my aunt married a hindu revert of indian origin (about 5 years ago), and the family has welcomed him with open arms. I will admit that at first there was a problem trying to convince my grandfather - however, after a few days he came round to the idea.
So - this problem does exist, but please don't paint all Asians with the same brush.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 18:52:57
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Originally posted by: Faraz Hassan
SalaamMy family is from a pakistani background, however we are from punjab and not mirpur.Alhimdillah my aunt married a hindu revert of indian origin (about 5 years ago), and the family has welcomed him with open arms. I will admit that at first there was a problem trying to convince my grandfather - however, after a few days he came round to the idea.So - this problem does exist, but please don't paint all Asians with the same brush.
Alhamdulillah thats great!
Let me take this oportunity to point out the same problem on the flip side....
the non-muslim family also give pain to the revert for marrying a muslim/different culture... (in effect the converts need a lot of support, not further problems from both families....)
so how did ur uncles family react to him marrying a pakistani?
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By YaNabi Chemist - 19.10.2008 18:58:12
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Originally posted by: Sister Nur.
so how did ur uncles family react to him marrying a pakistani?
His family disowned him as soon as he embraced Islam. The problem was slightly bigger than marrying a pakistani - the problem was marrying somebody who was NOT A HINDU!
Although, he visits his mother whenever he can. To put it bluntly, 99% of his family contacts were severed.
His brothers have also plotted to severely beat him.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 19:23:48
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Originally posted by: Faraz Hassan
Originally posted by: Sister Nur.so how did ur uncles family react to him marrying a pakistani? His family disowned him as soon as he embraced Islam. The problem was slightly bigger than marrying a pakistani - the problem was marrying somebody who was NOT A HINDU!Although, he visits his mother whenever he can. To put it bluntly, 99% of his family contacts were severed. His brothers have also plotted to severely beat him.
I can relate to that!
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By Nafs Zakiyah - 19.10.2008 19:27:04
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Bismillah
Assalamu Alaykum,
Some of these people already drowned in their own culture, racism and dunya worship that they are blinded, yet they think they represent some kind of true Islam.
Alhamdulillah when I reverted to Islam I was accepted by the Arab Wahhabi community instantly, and there was never a question about it. Though I have felt somewhat of racism and prejudice from some people at times. But not from the practicing brothers who actually care to study the deen.
The reason Wahhabis are less racist and treat all races justly is because the Salafis want to go back to the roots, whether we agree with their methodology or not, they intend to wash away all the filthy cultural practices, while the so called traditionalists have left Islamic practices for cultural traditionalism. People speak of not imitating the kuffar, but caste systems etc are surely from imitation of the kuffar and their kufr beliefs.
Of course some sisters and brothers find it hard to go against their family and community. And if we take compatibility into concideration, of course this is acceptable. But many brothers and sisters feel that they are compatible, but family don't accept it. It's peoples weakness that makes them fall into this bad cycle. It's understandable that they don't wanna go against their families and severe the ties etc. But as a whole, whether it starts with one person, one family etc, it has to be done sooner or later to save the community from this filth. People care more about what their neighbour thinks than what Allah (jalla jallalahu).
The Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wassalam) predicted that this behaviour would continue in his Ummah, but they (sallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wassalam) didn't find it acceptable the least bit. Once again people care more about neighbours and local community than the Prophet (sallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wassalam) that they claim to follow. Now some people are just weak, that's another thing, but some people believe it's an acceptable system or even good, these people don't realise that they are trying to turn haram into halal, or even mustahab. This is a curse for the Ummah.
What Know the Ledge wrote is just another sign of this. His ignorant and outrageous statements are not only an insult to the reverts but also to Islam itself. Saying people revert because they failed, subhan'Allah, not realising that reversion to Islam is indeed the greatest of victories.
It doesn't matter whether one is a doctor or a street sweeper, both are needed in this society. So you can't find fault at someone fulfilling their position in society. Or how would it look if everyone was a doctor or a company boss. Then everyone could sit there with their own companies and rot to death when they don't have any employees.
A pious person will not reject another pious person because he doesn't have enough money etc. So it only shows that these people won't marry their daughters to such a man because of their dunya-worship.
Saying Asians have strong family bonds etc is just a way to run away from the real problem. The problem is that they put these family bonds (as the brother claims) before the deen. Now they can continue corrupting the deen in the name of family unity, or they can take a stand and help to purify Islam from all the filth.
And why take the example of an Asia muslim marrying a white kafir.
Of course this kafir family is not gonna care about Islam, the reason why it looks to prove your point.
Some people have some serious waking up to do.
wassalam
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 19:37:43
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Originally posted by: Nafs az-Zakiyah
But many brothers and sisters feel that they are compatible, but family don't accept it.
Totally agree!
People care more about what their neighbour thinks than what Allah (jalla jallalahu).
It's so true... what would so and so say?? How many times have we heard this!!
His statements are not only an insult to the reverts but also to Islam itself. Saying people revert because they failed, subhan'Allah, not realising that reversion to Islam is indeed the greatest of victories.
Subhan Allah, but maybe only reverts appreciate the trueness of this...we dont take our deen for granted.
It doesn't matter whether one is a doctor or a street sweeper, both are needed in this society. So you can't find fault at someone fulfilling their position in society. Or how would it look if everyone was a doctor or a company boss. Then everyone could sit there with their own companies and rot to death when they don't have any employees. A pious person will not reject another pious person because he doesn't have enough money etc. So it only shows that these people won't marry their daughters to such a man because of their dunya-worship.
Its true.... why are so many graduates un-employed... there are too many graduates and not enough people to do the other jobs. And now the ministers want to complain about immigration due to unemployement when in fact the problem is the british born see blue collar, low skilled jobs as beneath them.
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By YaNabi Chemist - 19.10.2008 19:46:00
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why dont you wipe the streets?
I disagree with this notion that your job is totally unimportant, and i do not believe for one second that you will be happy if your daughter marrried a street cleaner.
Yes - deen plays an integral role, however you also need to make sure that the husband can provide for the family.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 19:51:28
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You know those guys who go around on the electric street cleaning machines...they probably earn more than me at the moment...and im an accountant...
so lets not go there about "providing" for the family.
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By Nafs Zakiyah - 19.10.2008 19:57:45
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Originally posted by: Faraz Hassan
why dont you wipe the streets?I disagree with this notion that your job is totally unimportant, and i do not believe for one second that you will be happy if your daughter marrried a street cleaner.Yes - deen plays an integral role, however you also need to make sure that the husband can provide for the family.
Well, if a person had some taqwa and trust in Allah, maybe they wouldn't be so attached to worldly wealth. It only goes to prove my point. And a street cleaner can feed and clothe a family. And with every new child there is more rizq as per the saying of Habib al-Atham (sallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wassalam).
wassalam
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 20:02:54
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Just to re-iterate...
highway cleaners (according to employers page) earn between 11-16K a year...
a friend of mine just joined a accoutning firm after graduating with a 2.1 and she got paid 10K as the average salary.... thats even less than a street cleaner...
so what was that about providing for family and importance of job?
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By YaNabi Chemist - 19.10.2008 20:21:20
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11-16k a year is Low. So my point still stands.
Many of you here clearly live in a nice and fluffy fairytale where dear prance about the meadows; where fairies kiss you goodnight, and little gnomes leave pots of gold every time you leave your cottage to go clean the streets.
In the real world however, people work to live. We need money, we want jobs with lots of money! We want to be able to provide for our families! There is nothing wrong with that, and this does not mean that you are a "lover of dunyah".
I honestly doubt that you will be happy if your daughter married somebody on such a low income. It is actually a condition for a husband to be able to provide for his wife and Kids. That is my point.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 20:33:35
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Sidi, my point is not there is anything wrong with wanting to provide for your family.
But its not necessary that poorer people are not happy.
I'll give u my own example: was proposed to by 2 individuals.
One was a chemical engineer, very very wealthy... good family, large houses, multiple cars, muslim born, etc etc
One was a poor revert, only jobs he can take is low skilled labour... but he loves the ahlul bayt... and puts his deen before everything...
which one did i choose?
Take your guess.
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By Nafs Zakiyah - 19.10.2008 20:38:32
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Bismillah,
It's not about living in a fairytale, but about not beeing greedy. Enough food to survive, clothes on your back and a simple roof over your head is enough. Everything other than that is excess. Now there is nothing wrong in having it per se, rather it's what you do with it. But to see this as something needed, something which we can't live a good life without, that's totally batil, and no doubt it is loving the dunya and even distrust in Allah.
People work to live? Well eat to live, don't live to eat!
wassalam
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 19.10.2008 20:38:42
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See it is also about whether one is willing to work hard and have ambition....
who is better in your eyes... the lazy heir who inherits the 20million fortune of his dads hard wok while he doesnt do a days work,
or the guy who works 12 hours a day to build his own small business out if integrity?
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By just ahsun! - 19.10.2008 21:01:30
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Assalamu Alaikum everyone, MashAllah good replies on this post by brother and sisters.
@sister nur and brother faraz, I believe you both have a fair point but if you try putting yourself in each others shoes it would make it much more clearer to understand each other. Our ideas develop by how we have seen the life and happiness is how we think and not who or what we are.
As for myself, I do like a simple mode of life but I won't be able to deny the needs of my family later on in life. Its more practical not to assume that my family would be happy just because the daily necessities are being fulfilled. This doesn't mean i don't trust Allah Azzawajal but having a bit of lavish just so your family could be pleased looks fine by me as brother Faraz has been saying it. And with my experiences I believe when your nurture them with Islam (peace and contentment) they would themselves choose to adopt the mode of life of the Beloved  and that would be true success rather than putting your way down their throat.
@brother luqman, I hope your in much better position now than before. What I can suggest you is a good way to mingle with the elders of pakistani origin is to learn some simple greetings in urdu so you can greet them in the similar way and that would definitely bring a smile on their face which would be a sadaqah for you . If their not eager to mingle, you shouldn't back off either.
I hope this helps JazakAllah khairan for your insights brother and sisters.
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By Nafs Zakiyah - 19.10.2008 21:13:44
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Bismillah
Assalamu Alaykum,
Sag-e-Attar
The thing that you are missing is that Faraz isn't saying that having a bit of excess is acceptable, and we all agreed with this depending on how you spend that money. But one can not justify that two persons are stopped from getting married because the male is not excessively rich. Not if they sincerely believe it's fine with them. But other people intervene, and often because of how people will look at them, not because they think that their daughter will starve to death. So it is still very un-Islamic in itself. Obviously no one said that one should force a simple lifestyle on a woman. So what you wrote wasn't really relevant per se.
wassalam
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By just ahsun! - 19.10.2008 21:29:01
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Walaikum Assalam
I think you have misunderstood what brother faraz meant as i havent seen him mentioning anywhere you have to be excessively rich but just a mere salary of 11-16k average a year is low because there would be left little or no savings in the end (I don't think this means a lack of tawakul; you put the trust first and than try your bits and bites). I do agree that in real world, people do look for excessive rich families to marry to but brother faraz didn't mean the above unless he confirms that.
But I believe its where your content lies in, thats the most important factor to determine your life and not what so and so thinks. But well in practical its easy to say but hard to achieve since people do intervene!!! The best thing for us is to make sure nothing as such happens in our family and than unite to make sure a nation can be changed. But can we really play our part without giving up? Thats where the problem lies. JazakAllah khairan for listening
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By LuqmanNaq - 20.10.2008 00:58:54
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Assalaamu alaikum brother Faraz,
I assure you I would choose a person of Taqwa over someone rich to marry my (inshaAllah) daughter any day. I believe having a good, fulfilling, relationship with Allah (swt) is far, far, more important than having a good bank balance.
I honestly doubt that you will be happy if your daughter married somebody on such a low income. It is actually a condition for a husband to be able to provide for his wife and Kids. That is my point.
I spent a life changing 2 months in Malaysia last year, the last month I lived with someone who studied for 4 years in an Islamic University (Tasawwuf based), and is a martial arts instructor of repute. He was and is extremely poor, dedicating most of his time and energy to teaching Islam (in an age where fitna and deviant paths are well financed and popularized), and teaching a martial art called Silat as a way of Dawah and to reach muslims who are in 'the bad life'. He has a wife and 4 children, he struggles to provide for his family, and times are hard but he is committed and sincere to trying to serve Deen. If he came as a young man with nothing but his love for Islam, his sincerity and kind heart - and asked for any muslim's daughters hand in marriage, they are privileged.
11-16k a year is Low. So my point still stands. Many of you here clearly live in a nice and fluffy fairytale where dear prance about the meadows; where fairies kiss you goodnight, and little gnomes leave pots of gold every time you leave your cottage to go clean the streets.
It is not we are delusion we just realize that money meant nothing to the Prophet (SAW), the Sahaba (who were of extremely humble material means) and the Awliya Allah - we simply don't believe it should be one of the main reasons for choosing a spouse.
Believe me I've grown up as a poor child in London however honestly looking back, I never noticed or was bothered by it, because of my mother's deep love and compassion for me. One thing again coming from a non-muslim background seems to be strange is, often in the social circle I ran in (which weren't too dodgy ;-) money or job wasn't a concern when looking for a partner, character was. Bizzare - they are less materialistic than some muslims (that wasn't directed towards you brother Faraz). Honestly I think some Muslims need to take a read again of Seerah and the lives of the Sahaba - and see their deep Taqwa and humble means. Surely we want our daughters to have the riches of the hereafter?
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By LuqmanNaq - 20.10.2008 01:08:52
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From As Shifa by Qadi 'Iyad;
11) One of the signs of perfect love is that the one who aspires to it does without in this world and prefers poverty. The Prophet said to Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, "Poverty for those among you who love me comes quicker than a flood from the top of the mountain to the bottom." (at-Tirmidhi) In a hadith from 'Abdullah b. Mughaffal, a man said to the Prophet, "O Messenger of Allah, I love you." He said, "Take care what you say!" He said, "By Allah, I love you" three times. He said, "If you love me, then prepare for poverty quickly." There is a similar hadith from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri.
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By Know the Ledge - 20.10.2008 01:50:00
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You have misunderstood my point about street cleaners.
The issue is not of how much they earn, but what kind of a background leads to these type of jobs. Whereas people with well paid jobs, tend to have, education, good attitude, will and drive, fortitude etc
Good jobs come from good attitudes and a person's wealth of charachter can be judged from the job they have. I know a guy who sweeps a Sainsburys supermarket, the guys a farily good muslim, but intellectually, he is a complete and utter joke. he tries to preach to people, but they laugh at him, because he talks complete disconcerted rubbish!
It isn't the salary earning potential that I was pertaining to, but the ancillary traits that are manifested in someone who is succesful in a worldy sense, these are skills which can be transferred laterally to deen. Like resilience for example. The guy who does a 5 year pharmacy degree, must demonstrate extreme dedication, this can be transfered to learning deen.
The fact that you allude to wealth and talk about 'the dusgusting dunya', is your own narrow understanding. The Prophet (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) was a succesful merchant, so there's nothing wrong with dunya, as long as it doesan't absorb you.
Secondly, you're taking my point about reverts coming to islam when they have failed at everything and misconstruing it. Many reverts come to islam when they're at their lowest point, they have no family, they have no self worth and they have no self esteem, that is a window of mercy.
Like when people who fall ill with cancer and then begin to look for answers to life. i don't believe for one second that reverts come to islam when the 'stock market' is riding high in their lives. This is anecdotally speaking.
Finally, Asians listen to their mothers and fathers in order to maintain their family bonds. This isn't 'running to mummy' as someone put it. The fact is, if you think that seeking our parents counsel and abrogating our own happiness to safeguard their happiness is a churlish act, then that's you opinion and you're entitled to it.
Sister Nur, people with accountancy degrees are not accountants. The term 'accountant' is a reference to people qualifed either ACCA or ACA or CIMA, the chartered associations are lobbying the governement to trademark this term and make it unlawful to be used by people not members of the above mentioned chartered associations. Using this for anyone not registered professionaly is fallacious.
All the ohter points made by Nafs Zakiyah are redundant, taking negatory aspects of the community and blowing them up proves nothing but some people (many people?) are like that, but this allusion that ALL of us are like that is prreposterous!
(Sorry about spelling, i've done this post in haste! )
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 01:58:09
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KTL:
i don't believe for one second that reverts come to islam when the 'stock market' is riding high in their lives. This is anecdotally speaking.
I became a muslim when i was top of my class, young, accomplished, from a fairly wealthy background, could get pretty much anything i wanted... so your claim is invalid. There was no low point!
Sister Nur, people with accountancy degrees are not accountants. The term 'accountant' is a reference to people qualifed either ACCA or ACA or CIMA
I forgot to mention... we come under the ACCA banner! Khush!
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By just ahsun! - 20.10.2008 02:09:06
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Secondly, you're taking my point about reverts coming to islam when they have failed at everything and misconstruing it. Many reverts come to islam when they're at their lowest point, they have no family, they have no self worth and they have no self esteem, that is a window of mercy
Like when people who fall ill with cancer and then begin to look for answers to life. i don't believe for one second that reverts come to islam when the 'stock market' is riding high in their lives. This is anecdotally speaking.
Assalamu Alaikum, brother this point is not even limited to reverts but one of the key factors when a non-practicing muslim becomes practicing and turns to his Lord when suffering in tyrants and misfortune. But in the end its a blessing in disguise which only few understand and repent with sincerity. Others turn their backs again once its all over.
Edit:
The issue is not of how much they earn, but what kind of a background leads to these type of jobs. Whereas people with well paid jobs, tend to have, education, good attitude, will and drive, fortitude etc
I think your generalizing it too much, its not necessary your education or type of job that defines your intellectual capacity. But your will to learn from your surroundings and taking interest in activities around you. A prime example can be one the famous scientists (galileo was it?? not entirely sure) who dropped out from college but later on went to make discoveries and contributing to modern science.
Because, trust me their are brighter people out their in africa and sub-continent who don't get the same chances as we do.
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By Nafs Zakiyah - 20.10.2008 02:27:38
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Bismillah
I never said there is anything wrong with having money. But it comes down to how attached one is to it, and how one spends it. Now Sayyiduna Rasulullah (sallAllahu alayhi wa aalihi wassalam), some of the Sahaba (radiAllahu anhum) and scholars of Islam had money. And for some of them it came and went, sometimes they were well off, sometimes they were poor. And it didn't make a difference to them. And when they had money, they still lived modest, they didn't get absorbed in the dunya.
If it's about ambitions as you claim, then why are some knowledgable students of knowledge rejected because they do not have proper dunya education and wealth? Now what if such a person is a street cleaner, or if he does any other low paid job? Financial status and job can play its part here, but not necessarily. It means that they spent alot of time educating themselves in a way that could make money, while someone who dedicates themselves to Islam shows that they are dedicated to the deen.
And i could say that some people who have "good" educations and well paid jobs are intellectually handicapped, it all depends on what one finds to be good intellectual traits. And a guy working at the warehouse can also show that he is hard working, and for you to look pass that is to disrespect certain important sectors of the society.
There is nothing wrong in wanting to keep family ties, like i said. But it is wrong when it becomes a plague for the ummah. And someone have to take the first step, whether it be a daughter, a son, or parents agreeing with their childrens choice.
wassalam
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By zulfkar333 - 20.10.2008 02:53:15
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Originally posted by: Sister Nur.
Sidi, my point is not there is anything wrong with wanting to provide for your family.But its not necessary that poorer people are not happy. I'll give u my own example: was proposed to by 2 individuals. One was a chemical engineer, very very wealthy... good family, large houses, multiple cars, muslim born, etc etcOne was a poor revert, only jobs he can take is low skilled labour... but he loves the ahlul bayt... and puts his deen before everything...which one did i choose? Take your guess.
Mashallah.
You have a lot of patience and may Allah Taala reward you in abundance for the steps you have taken in life. Inshallah with the blessing of Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) may Allah Taala shower you and your family highly.
It goes to show that you chose an individual who had nothing except love for the family of Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) and Inshallah you'll see the reward when you meet Allah Taala and Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) on the day of judgement.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 02:56:18
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Originally posted by: Z Hussain
Originally posted by: Sister Nur.Sidi, my point is not there is anything wrong with wanting to provide for your family.But its not necessary that poorer people are not happy. I'll give u my own example: was proposed to by 2 individuals. One was a chemical engineer, very very wealthy... good family, large houses, multiple cars, muslim born, etc etcOne was a poor revert, only jobs he can take is low skilled labour... but he loves the ahlul bayt... and puts his deen before everything...which one did i choose? Take your guess. Mashallah.You have a lot of patience and may Allah Taala reward you in abundance for the steps you have taken in life. Inshallah with the blessing of Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) may Allah Taala shower you and your family highly. It goes to show that you chose an individual who had nothing except love for the family of Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) and Inshallah you'll see the reward when you meet Allah Taala and Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) on the day of judgement.
Jazak Allahu Khayran Kind brother/sister. Your dua brought tears to my eyes.
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By zulfkar333 - 20.10.2008 03:10:50
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Sister Nur at least some of us on this forum can learn from what you have done, in taking steps in life moving more closer to the beloved of Allah Taala (Hazoor SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam). The way in which you sacrificed wealth and many worldly desires is truly amazing. It goes to show the purity of your heart and that true muslims should be able to sacrifice the world for Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) and the Ahle Bayt.
You may struggle living in this world with many problems but remember the beloved of Allah Taala Hazoor (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam) also faced many tests and challenges but only on the day of judgement you alone will know what you have achieved. Mashallah
P.s I'm a brother.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 03:12:41
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Thankyou brother...
may Allah bless you and fill your days with nur and your nights with khayr, and bring you closer and closer to His Habib (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam).
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By zulfkar333 - 20.10.2008 03:14:44
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Originally posted by: Sister Nur.
Thankyou brother...may Allah bless you and fill your days with nur and your nights with khayr, and bring you closer and closer to His Habib (SalAllaho Alahi WaAlehi Wasalam).
AMEEN and Jazakullah. 
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By LuqmanNaq - 20.10.2008 03:32:00
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On this topic, and the emotions it's stirred I overlooked something I should have done immediately.
Sister Nur...
May Allah (Swt) bless you with a happy marriage, pious children, and his (Swt) love and mercy here and hereafter. You have done something amazing, it warmed my heart to read it...
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 03:44:26
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Originally posted by: Luqman Watts
On this topic, and the emotions it's stirred I overlooked something I should have done immediately.
Sister Nur...
May Allah (Swt) bless you with a happy marriage, pious children, and his (Swt) love and mercy here and hereafter. You have done something amazing, it warmed my heart to read it...
Ameen and you too akhi. Your posts really touched me! may Allah always keep you on al haqq, and reward all your efforts and dont worry... we pick this deen for the akhirah... in the end how the people treat us is their doing and they are answerable to Allah. Be strong, Allah loves you.
My duas are with you and your family insha Allah.
Please keep me and my spouse in yours.
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By LuqmanNaq - 20.10.2008 04:03:41
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Dear Know the Ledge,
Good jobs come from good attitudes and a person's wealth of charachter can be judged from the job they have.
Honestly, some of the worst human being I've met personally in my life have had 'good jobs' according to society. The widespread crimes of corporations and their management, who manipulate and exploit people, and the environment, for material gain is something that a documentary by the name of The corporation (a little dated but still good) can show you is rampant. Honestly a person job is no indication of their character, or attitude, the end justifies the means according to many people it seems I've personally known in the business world.
It isn't the salary earning potential that I was pertaining to, but the ancillary traits that are manifested in someone who is succesful in a worldy sense, these are skills which can be transferred laterally to deen.
If that is you reason that Alhamdulillah. However have you thought of not judging their character based on their Job, and instead talking to them an examining their character and investigating what brought them to their current point in life. Perhaps they are now in a 'low' job because they were in a well paid 'good' job that was Haraam?
Secondly, you're taking my point about reverts coming to islam when they have failed at everything and misconstruing it. Many reverts come to islam when they're at their lowest point, they have no family, they have no self worth and they have no self esteem, that is a window of mercy.
Honeslty you shouldn't generalize. As a revert and speaking to many reverts I've known they come from a variety of backgrounds and their Journey to Islam is always unique to hear... Watch Youtube sometime... 2 Reverts I know reverted whilst being a Marine biologist in Saudi Arabis, and a professional dancer in London. Talk to reverts hear their story. Abdal Hakim Murad doesn't fit your profile, nor does Shaykh Nuh Keller, nor Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. Nor do various scientists that have reverted (check out youtube).
All the ohter points made by Nafs Zakiyah are redundant, taking negatory aspects of the community and blowing them up proves nothing but some people (many people?) are like that, but this allusion that ALL of us are like that is prreposterous!
please forgive me for being direct, but your posts are the kind of attitude that continues the community isolation. Honestly the next time you go into your mosque have a look at how many non-Asians are there, then go to your town centre and have a look how man Asians are their, you will see the problem InshaAllah. In 40 years little Dawah and community cohesion has been achieved, I know that is not down to Islam, but down the muslims. The Salafis even with their corrupt doctrine still are able to be more successful in Dawah than the Asian Muslim community by far, if you believe otherwise you are wrong and I invite you to have brief chat with some Salafis, or stand outside their mosque and watch the various races that go in.
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By LuqmanNaq - 20.10.2008 04:07:05
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Dear Sister Nur,
we pick this deen for the akhirah... in the end how the people treat us is their doing and they are answerable to Allah. Be strong, Allah loves you.
JazakAllah... you know I was simply going to take the advice of the Imam and focus on deen and leave this topic. I checked and saw people replying. The stories from reverts, and the frustration came back... sigh... You are right, I'm in this deen for Allah, regardless of what happens.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 04:11:49
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Originally posted by: Luqman Watts
Dear Sister Nur,
we pick this deen for the akhirah... in the end how the people treat us is their doing and they are answerable to Allah. Be strong, Allah loves you.
JazakAllah... you know I was simply going to take the advice of the Imam and focus on deen and leave this topic. I checked and saw people replying. The stories from reverts, and the frustration came back... sigh... You are right, I'm in this deen for Allah, regardless of what happens.
May Allah bless you
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By LuqmanNaq - 20.10.2008 04:15:28
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Perhaps we should move away from focusing soley on the marriage issue and talking about how to end the overall community isolationist attitudes and practices?
Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi was sallam) said, "A woman is normally sought as a wife for her wealth, beauty, nobility, or religiousness (adherence to Islam), but choose a religious woman and you will prosper. " (Muslim) "A woman is married for four things, i.e., her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion. You should marry the religious woman (otherwise) you will be a loser. "(Bukhari) And he said, "The whole world is a provision, and the best object of benefit of the world is the pious woman. " (Muslim) The same holds true when looking for a husband, as the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alayhi was sallam) said, "When someone with whose religion and character you are satisfied asks to marry your daughter, comply with his request. If you do not do so, there will be corruption and great evil on earth. " (Tirmidhi)
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By Qadri Jilani - 20.10.2008 04:48:41
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Originally posted by: Luqman Watts
Perhaps we should move away from focusing soley on the marriage issue and talking about how to end the overall community isolationist attitudes and practices?
I agree because with marriage it is not unreasonable for someone to prefer someone from the same cultural background as ethnic background is included when factors of compatibility are considered for marriage; there is no surprise or harm in seeing Arabs marrying Arabs, Africans marrying Africans, Bangladeshis marrying Bangladeshis, Pakistanis marrying Pakistanis and so on. What we need to focus on is general issues of isolation vs conhesion in our Muslim communities.
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By just ahsun! - 20.10.2008 04:58:40
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Assalamu Alaikum brothers and sisters,
Maybe its hard for us to grasp the problems and feelings of reverts, but as our Beloved described the ummah as one body; pain in one part is felt in others. An optimistic approach to such situations does sometimes lead to a contentment since there are people in worst situations than us but sometimes it just gets out of hand when emotions just burst out.
A question I would like to put forth,just as you need investment for business what is the biggest investment to a relationship (can be taken in general sense)? Is it money? Is it knowledge? Is it anything to do with being brought in a good family background? Is it character and morals? Because this investment holds the key to successful relationship but yet few understand it. There loosing it to acquire things which are just secondary, something which may or may not strengthen a bond but not yet complete it because it will still remain fragile. Just a thought to ponder upon, I would answer the riddle soon trying to provide examples as well InshAllah.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 14:31:11
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Okay...moving away from marriage,
let me take this opportunity to highlight a problem almost ALL reverts have complained about:
EID: when eid day comes, usually people are all busy with their families, and many reverts feel isolated and left out and have no one to celebrate with. After the eid salat, they don't have anywhere to go...
How can we tackle this?
(it's understandable sometimes people dont want strangers in their homes mixing with their wives/husband/children etc... but then how can we solve this issue to exclusion?)
I find the wahabbis do it very well...in the morning they have a brothers-only, sisters-only open house and in the evenign they spend it with family, but i have not seen such initiatives from our sunni populations.
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By YaNabi Chemist - 20.10.2008 14:41:25
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why dont you reverts get together and make a mosque of your own?
there should be enough of you now to be able to do this. This will actually be great for the ummah, as we will have our first mosque built and run by indigenous britains!
think about it!
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 15:32:24
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Originally posted by: Faraz Hassan
why dont you reverts get together and make a mosque of your own?there should be enough of you now to be able to do this. This will actually be great for the ummah, as we will have our first mosque built and run by indigenous britains!think about it!
and what about those in sparse areas with only one or two reverts?
not everyone lives in huge populated areas...
and not everyone is from britain!
And make a new reverts-mosque.... whats happening to you people? you seem to be sucked into the british divide and rule system. You seem to want to segregate us even more.
But then I'm not even suprised at what you come out with!!!
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By MMM - 20.10.2008 15:33:26
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I understand that reverts are left out. The Asian Muslims have huge families and I believe they never thought about it this way.
How about creating a special forum for (non)isolated members of the Muslim society online and spread the word?
People can decide and manage it. Everyone should be welcomed but the focus should be on the isolated members of our Muslim society, they should feel comfortable - too much attention can make them uncomfortable too, I suppose.
Segregate the Muslims according to the location and they can gather at someone's residence or even book a small hall if they are willing to contribute financially (not recommended though, just a suggestion). I will prefer a home, the atmosphere is homely, informal to an extent and comfortable. The aspect of any sense of formality (apart from a good moral behaviour) should be excluded.
Volunteers will be required. Especially women hosts who will have to clean up the place later (and yes! Men too!) and expect children running around the place, so expect to lose a few assets like decoration pieces, marks on walls, even stained carpets and your garbage full of diapers (lol), etc. I am not joking here. I have an experience of more than two decades of weekly hosting (except Ramadan and vacations) so I understand all the issues. People who think they really love their homes shouldn't host. After reading these, most might end up arranging a hall I suppose which I donot encourage.
Men and women get different rooms or even two corners of a room if they are comfortable with it, with or without a partition if not enough space is available.
The host should be someone who completely understands that there can be a possible conflict of characters and should be bold enough to control such a gathering.
I am absolutely loving the idea uptil now.
Not many might like the following idea because they have an independant mindset. I am speaking in terms of Eidi - giving money to younger ones at Eid, including Milad-un-Nabi and Al-Isra Wal Mi'raj. If people are willing to go for it, they should discuss about this custom. Elders or middle-aged people can exchange gifts as it is a Sunnah and spreads love.
Well, well, loads of ideas...now, I wish I lived in the UK for it. The best part about it is that you actually feel you are contributing to the society or more like Allah Azzawajal Has Blessed you with this service. You will thank Allah Azzawajal when you are able to put a smile on the face of strangers InshaAllah.
Anyhow, I think an effort will be required from the volunteers who wish to set it up InshaAllah.
Lastly, I think it will be best if there is only a small number of people at a place 10-20 in both men and women so that everyone is addressed to and is attended or some might feel left-out. They can introduce themselves individually or one-by-one.
Such gatherings will open doors to tackle all types of social issues such as marriage, etc. Married brothers and sisters can spread the word of the individuals who are willing to get married and interested members can meet.
Comments and criticism please!
JazakAllahu Khayran
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By YaNabi Chemist - 20.10.2008 15:35:09
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Sister Nur!
You have taken this the wrong way, you obviously have problems going to mosques run by people from different cultures.
Now when somebody suggests that you should try an make a mosque run by reverts, you complain once again!
I'm out.
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By MMM - 20.10.2008 15:42:18
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Brothers and sisters, please reply with the perspective of uniting the Muslim community, not segregating it, or even isolating others!
Now, who is actually willing to contribute practically?
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By YaNabi Chemist - 20.10.2008 15:49:46
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I fail to see how reverts setting up a mosque is aiding in segregation and division!
You wouldn't say that if pakistanis who now live in Malasia built a mosque.
I argue that this will be good for that country, as for the first time we will have Mosques built by people who have not emigrated here. it will demonstrate Thta Islam is here, and is here to stay.
If we have this mentality, there is an even stronger case against the madhabs for dividing the Ummah. Anybody here care to show me otherwise?
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By MMM - 20.10.2008 15:56:39
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You cannot eradicate Racism/tribalism or encourage socialising and building unity by building Mosques. There are other various factors that come before it, like building it?
The importance should be given to the factor of socialising, without including any financial aspects.
We accept that reverts may be financially and socially unstable, yet we expect them to build a Mosque!
Anyway, I am not here to debate. I am willing to contribute productively InshaAllah.
JazakAllahu Khayran
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By Know the Ledge - 20.10.2008 16:54:03
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Why do reverts act like such a touchy bunch? I don't owe anybody anything!
Everything I said has been refuted with extreme examples.
If I said that the average number of legs of people in Britain = less than 2, would that be accepted? Even though there is irrefutable proof that, that is the is case? No, it is intellectual deceit, to use individual examples when you know full well that the general picture is totally different to your own personal experiences.
IF you are a revert and you are married, then you have a family, so no complaints. If not, then make yourself eligible for marriage.
Salafis in my city aren't doing anything, how can you say i'm wrong when my expeirences corroborate my opinion. I'm not from that cesspit which is London, things may be different there, quite possibly, the salafis that run those institutes are reverts there themselves, so they have a special attention towards them and their needs.
Rather than asking what's being done for you, ask, what are you doing for the community? Reverts and others.
I can feel the reverts isolating themsevles in this thread and feel their camaraderie. It's human nature!
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 17:39:29
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Brother MMM... hats of to your wonderful socialising idea. Sounds exciting
Brother Faraz.. forgive me if i came down a bit harsh but i still disagree. I dont have a problem going to a pakistani mosque... never said i did. All I am saying is everyone should make a better attempt at mixing and including everyone and making an effort.
We dont really need a 100 half empty mosques, a few full ones with people to welcome each other is much better.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 20.10.2008 17:43:30
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KTL... im not just banging on about london...
i've lived in glasgow, newcastle and been to many other places.
I have to say rochdale does a fantastic job when it comes to welcoming people...masha Allah.
Other, sometimes not so well.
Why cant we just accept that reverts do feel like this from time to time, and instead of going defensive, why dont you just say: ok next year i will make the effort on eid to invite a revert to come with me to the eid prayer?Maybe even accept his invitation once in a while.
Is it really that hard!?
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By zahir b - 20.10.2008 20:10:07
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salams all,
takbeer and adhaan (azan - for all you WELL EDUCATED people from the urdu/hindi/punjabi speaking sub continent which is india and pakistan) will be heard from domes of the vatican very soon.... inshallah.... muslims specially the ones - sorry "the god' chosen few" who' fathers are from the above mentioned continent and seem to have a monopoly on islam, should try to look from "outside of the box" instead of "from the inside" .....remember everyone of us is a representative of the prophet (saw) but sometimes from our own ego we forget what the prophet (saw) represented..... , remember one day we are all going to meet our master, and i pray the one closest to him that day will be the one who is bblliinndd!!!!! if ive offended anyone, take a look at yourself if you find no faults then please forgive me, takecare, spread love, and live life to the fuuullllll!!!!!!!
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By Alom - 20.10.2008 23:14:41
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Salaamu Alaikum to all the brothers and sisters who have taken part on this thread thus far.
First off I would like to welcome our dear brother Luqman to this forum and congratulate him for taking the bold step in highlighting this very sensitive issue.
Secondly I would like to thank sister Nur for taking the next step and proposing to break down this problem in to smaller ones so we can work our way dealing with one issue at a time. One important thing that we all must realise is that we are not doing this to prove anything to the world, but we are doing it to make life easier for our fellow Muslims regardless of their colour and their backgrounds. Some people may label this as a feel of compassion from a revert to another but I disagree, I believe this is the correct path which was ordained for us as a representative of Islam to help one another.
I am not going to indulge on the discussion about marriage as I believe the subject has been dealt well by both parties. I agree with the brothers and sisters who believe caste system should be abolished as it has no base in Islam and only segregates one Muslim from another, and to my limited understanding I don't think such commodities was practise during the golden age of Islam. However and coming to the comments made by my brothers Faraz and Ledge one has to agree that the period we are leaving in now is no where near the golden age of islam, instead I personally believe this is the dark ages we are facing right now. Money has taken key roles in our life, and one has to adapt to its situation to survive. No question about it deen is the most important factor in our life, however saying that one also must understand that money at this period of time is also slowly building its way in our life. I have witnessed a lot of families going through difficult situation because of lack of money in their lives, some families even broke apart. Now people can blame this on lack of deen, but I personally diagnose that one needs to keep a firm balance between the both.
Anyhow lets move on to something constructive. I really like the idea of doing an Eid gathering and my acclamation goes to brother Triple M for highlighting it beautifully with details. It reminded me of deed I use to do when I was residing in London, what we use to do in the week before Christmas was design a gathering for the homeless and we use to feed them by making the food ourselves and we also use to distribute them to near by orphanage.
So perhaps brother Luqman can do something like that with his community but for Eid. We can stay here all night and come up with ideas after ideas but they will be no good unless we put them into action, so brother Luqman why don't you have a talk with your imam and propose the idea of having a gathering in the morning of Eid day so all the brothers can feel the closeness of the Ummah, and later on those who want to go and visit their relatives and friends can go and do so and the remainder of the group can cook up some nice meal and distribute them to the poor, that way you will be also promoting Islam, and if you can try and get the youths involved in it so they can too understand the true spiritual meaning of Eid.
At first you might not get too many people excited but don't let that damper your spirit. Remember when the holy Prophet (pbuh) was introducing Islam to his people, not all of them at first jumped the bandwagon, but none the less the Prophet (pbuh) still carried on promoting Islam and so should you. The first step is always the hardest but once you have taken it the rest of the path become straight forward, so go ahead and prepare your Eid plan in advance.
I leave this post with a story to all our users that their once was a city called Madina. Many years ago about 1400 years to be precise a group of people migrated from the city of Makkah to Madina to escape prosecution leaving behind them their homes and some their families, and ventured in to an unknown land. The people of Madina whom had no real relationship with the new comers invited them to their land and to their homes with open arms, sharing with them their wealth, their cloths and their food.
1400 years after and coming to this day so much has changed...........yet hope still lives!
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By Ishqu Qalbi Ya Habib Allah - 23.10.2008 03:24:56
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Originally posted by: Sister Nur.
Brother MMM... hats of to your wonderful socialising idea. Sounds exciting ![]()
Brother Faraz.. forgive me if i came down a bit harsh but i still disagree. I dont have a problem going to a pakistani mosque... never said i did. All I am saying is everyone should make a better attempt at mixing and including everyone and making an effort.
We dont really need a 100 half empty mosques, a few full ones with people to welcome each other is much better.
Well said sister Nur Masha'Allah you have made some brilliant points in this thread. JazakAllah Khair to brothers Luqman, Nafs Uz-Zakiyah and Sister Nur for sharing their thoughts and experiences with us and discussing some of the problems that reverts to Islam experience. Last year, one of my white friends became a Muslim, Alhamdulillah Before she became a Muslim, we attended many Islamic talks together and we met and spoke to quite a few Islamic scholars at these events who helped to answer some of her questions (May Allah Ta'ala reward the shayukh abundantly for all their help. Aameen Thumma Aameen) regarding Islam. Alhamdulillah, after reading about Islam, spending time with other Muslims and attending talks etc she decided to take the shahada and we still attend talks as much as we can.
However, as Sister Nur has highlighted, masjids need to be alot more welcoming and help the reverts. When me and my friend went to the masjid together, especially the ones where most of the ladies present were Asian, my friend was stared at alot and the women hardly ever smiled at times and she didn't feel very welcome at times, whereas at some other masjids we went to where there was a mixture of sisters from different cultures such as Somalians, Arabs, Pakistanis and there was less staring and the sisters seemed more welcoming and attempted to talk to my friend and make her feel welcome. I think this is an area that needs to be focused on because there are many non-muslims who are exploring Islam and there are many reverts who go to talks in masjids to learn more about Islam and to meet others who can help them, but if the people in the masjids are not welcoming and not helpful then the non-Muslims exploring Islam and the reverts will begin to feel isolated and not know who to turn to for support. I think that masjids need to start having something in place for reverts so that they can meet other reverts and can learn about Islam and learn things such as Arabic and Salah. Many reverts struggle to find someone who can help them or classes to learn how to pray salah and classes to learn Arabic so that they can read the Qur'an and other Islamic books and therefore I believe this needs to be addressed.
It would be brilliant if masjids could start some sort of programme consisting of different classes for Reverts and advertise these classes through Islamic forums, leaflets and posters in shops and the masjid itself so that news of the classes could also spread by word of mouth Insha'Allah. Classes could include Arabic for beginners. From my experience many classes for beginners (Adults) at masjids require the student to know the arabic alphabet and how to read the joined letters before they begin the class whereas the classes for children do start right from scratch learning each letter and how to read and pronounce it, but no adult would really want to join a child's class. Therefore there needs to be Arabic classes for reverts which start from learning the basics, meaning the alphabet. Additionally, classes include fiqh classes and a salah class teaching reverts how to pray salah and providing handouts of the du'as and targets so that they memorise certain du'as for salah before each class as I think that there aren't alot of masjids that provide this sort of help for reverts. It would also be good to hold dhikr sessions for reverts and perhaps after dhikr, there could be a tea/coffee session where reverts get to meet other reverts, but it would also be good at this point to have other Muslim brothers and sisters at the session to make reverts feel welcome inshaAllah and to help them in any way possible.
These are just some of my ideas and perhaps there are many masjids that already have classes like this in place for reverts, but I have not come across many masjids that seem welcoming to reverts and help them in this way. Please feel free to agree/disagree with my points and voice your opinions and concerns. Furthermore, the idea that brother MMM presented regarding inviting revert brothers and sisters to homes at Eid and other special occasions or having a gathering in a hall sounds excellent masha'Allah. Personally, I believe the home is a better location than in a hall because the home seems like a more relaxed, warm and welcoming environment than a hall.
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By Ishqu Qalbi Ya Habib Allah - 23.10.2008 03:30:47
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Earlier this month at Eid, I invited my friend who reverted to Islam to come and celebrate Eid at my home with my family and she was invited by a few of our other friends too Alhamdulillah to their homes to celebrate Eid and I believe it really does make a difference and makes one feel welcomed. Next Eid, Insha'Allah I will try to invite more people I think the idea is brilliant and a great way for the new Muslims to experience what Muslims do at Eid and to meet other Muslims including the new Muslims and feel welcomed.
I just ask that brothers and sisters put themselves in the shoes of our revert brothers and sisters and imagine that if you were new to Islam and you did not have much support and were not welcomed by other Muslims in the community or were not welcomed in the Masjids, what would you do and how would you feel? Therefore, we need to aim for inclusion and not let reverts feel isolated as they are our brothers and sisters and as Muslims it is our duty to help one another in the best way possible Insha'Allah Ta'ala.
May Allah Ta'ala guide us all and make us better Muslims. Aameen Ya Rabbal Alameen and may Allah Ta'ala bless you sister Nur and your spouse and bless you with a successful marriage filled with love and happiness. May Allah Ta'ala make life easy for you both. Aameen Thumma Aameen! Bed time for me now as I have work in the morning 
Ma'assalaamah! 
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By LuqmanNaq - 25.10.2008 00:35:04
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Assalaamu alaikum Wa rahmatullahi Wa barakatu,
I would like to first apologize for the tone of my previous posts in response to some other brothers comments. I cannot offer and excuse for my lack of Adab. I would like to ask the Admins to delete both of my replies to Brother Know the Ledge (#10 and #45) and I ask for your forgiveness brother for my behaviour.
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I intended this discussion to be about more than just the reverts, I believe the problems I have outlined - of Tribalism - effect Asian Muslim youth, non-Asian born Muslims, and the non-Muslims who live in Britain ... I'd just like to highlight the main things that I believe we as a community need to address...
Racism
The problem is rampant. Regarding the subject of marriage, I know of many Asians and non-Asians who have unfortunately been unable to marry a suitor because of their race. Within the Asian community I know that 'mixed' marriages between Guajarati's, Bengalis, and Pakistanis are prevented by parents who disapprove of their children marrying outside of their immediate family's 'origin'. I also know of non-Asians who have been prevented from marrying Asians because their family wouldn't like them to marry someone outside of their race. Just to stress I'm talking about Asians who desire to marry somebody but are being denied the opportunity due to their parents Racism, I'm not talking about being denied due to their job, socio-economic status, or education - I'm talking about Racism which I know is rampant in the Asian Muslim community. I again would just like to stress that the problem of Racism within the Ummah effects both Asians and non-Asians.
Lack of Dawah
The lack of Dawah that has been done in the last 40 yrs is something that frustrates almost all of the reverts that I have spoken to. As we all know Islam holds the answers to all of life's problems both personal and societal - the world is crying out for answers, and we Muslim's have the answer, but we have failed to share it with our neigbouring communites. From observation of the born Muslim community they seem to display no strong desire to bring non-Muslims to Islam. Most - reverts at least - know that in regards to Dawah (via speech and text at least), the Salafis are filling the void left by the Sunnis.
The Prophet (saws) was not only concerned with the well-being and spiritual flourishing of the Ummah, but he was also concerned with how to bring non-Muslims into the fold of Islam, and save them from Jahannam.
Community Isolation
From personal observation and again hearing the complaints of reverts and non-Muslims. It seems that rather than being ambassadors for Islam, the Born Muslim community seem to have created - and are trying to maintain - a cultural 'ghetto' and seem to be making little attempts at community cohesion, and outreach.
The practices (whether intentional or unintentional) of 'imported' Imams, Urdu speaking in Masjids, over emphasis on inter-family marriages, prohibiting children to marry outside their race, immigrants who don't learn English, the 'caste' system mentality, etc, have all served to create a community in Isolation.
I think the attitude and practice of Self-Isolation has come at a severe price... Many Asian Muslim youth are adopting the cultural trends of non-Muslim youth. I believe that if the Asian Muslim community tried (or tries) to build communication and understanding with their surrounding communities perhaps they would have deeper insight into the culture that their youth are adopting, and could take more effective measures to 'reach' them.
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I believe all of the above are interconnected - I could be wrong? Does anyone agree or disagree with the analysis?
Does anyone have any solutions?
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I realize that as a revert little of what I can do will have any effect - the mosques it's committees aren't 'made up' of reverts, and non-Asian muslims. Also the Sunni Muslim reverts seem to be 'scattered' geographically, and not in any significant number to do anything effective like open mosques (perhaps it is something we as reverts should aspire to do?), I personally believe that the Salafi reverts are in larger numbers, I know of at least one seemingly revert filled Salafi Mosque in Birmingham.
Anyway... InshaAllah my words have been some benefit to the Ummah, and I beg forgiveness of anyone I have offended. I also thank the Asian Muslims community for building mosques, and bringing to our shores such Ulama like Shaykh Nuh Keller, Shaykh Habib Jifri, Shaykh Yaqoubi Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, etc. Their presence on this land is a blessing to everyone in the Ummah who resides in Britain and JazakAllah for the opportunity to receive sacred knowledge from these blessed Ulama. In spite of what I have wrote above, and my tone throughout this discussion (please forgive me) the Asian Muslim community's presence in this land alone has probably been the reason for the Rahma that is upon Britain today, and I recieved Dawah from an Asian (revert).
JazakAllah Khair for everything you've done.
InshaAllah now that my nafs are (inshaAllah) under control whilst writing this, InshaAllah the tone will come across as constructive criticism - and broader than being just about reverts.
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By Sister Nur Husayn - 25.10.2008 01:05:40
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Sister Ishqu qalbi... masha Allah, May Allah bless your efforts and ameen to all your dua.
Please PM me ur email add i have been meaning to forward something to you.
Brother Luqman...another wonderful post.
Yes you are right there is an issue... i come from an asian family...and the problem is not just amongst muslims...it is a cultural thing indeed.
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By Ishqu Qalbi Ya Habib Allah - 25.10.2008 01:15:50
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Aameen to your du'as too sis! Check your PM sis
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By LuqmanNaq - 25.10.2008 10:16:00
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JazakAllah sister Nur for your kind words. Am wrong about Racism in the Asian Muslim community from your perspective?
Forgot to add this... this Shaykh expresses the point of view I far more eloquently than I ever could...
http://www.faithtube.com/video/AUDIO-Shaykh-Ahmad-BaBikir-Bi
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By MMM - 26.10.2008 14:20:55
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Brother Luqman, we are aware that there is a factor of racism present in our Asian community and I can guarantee you that you will not find it amongst practicing Muslims InshaAllah because they are aware of the true nature of Islam.
Since you have taken the first step of raising an issue of concern, I believe the brothers and sisters will ponder about it and act to counter it InshaAllah.
Most Asians are devout believers in the caste and race ideology so you will have to bear the amount of time it will take to eradicate these beliefs.
JazakAllahu Khayran
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By Ishqu Qalbi Ya Habib Allah - 26.10.2008 20:57:29
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Originally posted by: Muhammad Mobasher Muhammadi
Most Asians are devout believers in the caste and race ideology so you will have to bear the amount of time it will take to eradicate these beliefs.
JazakAllahu Khayran
Alot of Asians are devout believers in the caste sytem and marrying within the same race, but I feel this is more prevalent in the older generations of Asians rather than the youth, perhaps more so in the UK and other Western countries. I think many of the younger generation of Asians, do not mind whether they marry the same caste or not, whether a Mughal, Jat, Chaudhary etc and some do not mind marrying from a different race (although I think alot of the younger Asians still do want to marry within the same race). However, alot of the older generations do believe in marrying from the same caste and I think the Asians do need to be educated on this issue because there are many Asian brothers and sisters out there who find a potential spouse who is pious and practicing yet because they are not of the same caste or race, their parents often say no when RasoolAllah has said in a hadith that when choosing a spouse, religion and piety should be the most important quality that we should seek in a spouse. It would be good if our Sunni Masjids could hold some talks in English and the languages of the Sub Continent to educate Asians that Islam does not say it is compulsory to marry within the same caste or race and if the speakers could provide references from the Qur'an and Hadith this would strengthen the argument Insha'Allah and make our Asian brothers and sisters more aware of this issue Insha'Allah Ta'ala. JazakAllah Khair
Ma'assalaamah
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By LuqmanNaq - 02.11.2008 01:05:47
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JazakAllah Khair for the replies...
Uncle Muhammad Mobasher... sigh I do need patience... like a brother told me today, we are living in the end times and every fitna of every age is here today.
Ishqu Qalbi Ya Habeeb Allah... I wish their was more education and discussion about this too. I don't personally believe that the problem will finish with the next generation they seem to like music and culture of non-asians but I rarely see them mixing with non-Asians (except boys with girls).
I just wanted to pass on this blog article... it is about a broader issue, but he raises the point of the isolationist attitude's contribution to the growth of Salafism...
http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/02/04/reflections_on_salafisms_rise
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By Ishqu Qalbi Ya Habib Allah - 02.11.2008 01:56:40
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Originally posted by: Luqman Watts
JazakAllah Khair for the replies...
Uncle Muhammad Mobasher... sigh I do need patience... like a brother told me today, we are living in the end times and every fitna of every age is here today.
Ishqu Qalbi Ya Habeeb Allah... I wish their was more education and discussion about this too. I don't personally believe that the problem will finish with the next generation they seem to like music and culture of non-asians but I rarely see them mixing with non-Asians (except boys with girls).
I just wanted to pass on this blog article... it is about a broader issue, but he raises the point of the isolationist attitude's contribution to the growth of Salafism...
http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2007/02/04/reflections_on_salafisms_rise
Uncle MMM is right...we all do need patience because for problems like this to be eradicated, it takes time but we have to remember that patience is beautiful...As-Sabirun jameelun and Insha'Allah if we put our effort in and educate others about these issues, we will see the fruits of our hard work inshaAllah. As for the younger generation of Asians, yes many do listen to the music of non-Asians but do not "hang out" with non-Asians. There are Asians, like myself, who do have non-Asian friends, but for those who don't, I believe their upbringing and what they have been taught by their parents may be one of the factors, but also you have to remember that some young Asians may live in a predominantly Asian area and the school, college or university they go to and the course they are enrolled on may be mainly made of Asians and so they have less or none non-Asian friends. So it is important to note these factors and take these into account when considering how to tackle certain problems.
Ma'assalaamah
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By LuqmanNaq - 15.11.2008 20:25:17
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=...vwDuSo&feature=related
- Baba Ali on Racism :-)
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